Logic and Hand Reading (Day 18 Course Discussion)

#1 April 15th, 2020, 11:01 PM

The first rule of Hand Reading is always start with the pre-flop betting round.

If you have not yet read Day 18 and watched the video for Day 18 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it:

Hand Reading

We have learned that hand reading does not mean putting your opponent on an exact hand and is not an exact science. All we need to do is put them on a range of hands based on their tendencies and actions so far in the hand. Collin gives us some great examples in the video.

Let's discuss hand reading with Collin and Katie in this thread!

Logic and Hand Reading (Day 18 Course Discussion)

Logic and Hand Reading (Day 18 Course Discussion)

#2 April 27th, 2020, 5:47 AM

This presentation had a very nice flow and was easy to follow. This is the essence of playing well. I've noticed that other players and even myself sometimes get mesmerized by their hands and how it relates to the board...these instances were at a local casino playing $5 limit poker. Another thing would be players looking at their hand when new cards were shown at flop/turn/river..as it they had forgotten what they had..(could be indicators regarding suits and/or connecting cards). Live, I would usually wait to see how everyone responded to what they had then I would briefly look at mine once. Usually there would be one or two other jokers like myself who would watch and try to wait out the others because we were all doing the same thing. Online, bet sizing and response time (as well as some background on the skill set of who I'm playing with) come into play. If there is a consistent lag to responses then this person is multi-tabling (assuming a 100% connection) and is not recreational. If the bets are hot keyed (not the standard buttons) then this person is a thinker and sending messages via these unique bets. If the bets are a random jumble (like in ACR) where you can swipe across and get weird numbers then this may indicate a careless person or excited person depending upon the circumstances of the bet. Big fast bets indicate players who know the game...especially when something happens and their tempo changes.

Playing "paint by numbers" poker by following "the best numbers" is not something I find that interesting and would rather play blackjack instead (live only). More than once I had been "whipsawed" in online games where the only logical conclusion was that collusion was taking place. Live, I've seen people crimp cards, signal etc... . From one set of signal specialists I was able to take a big pot from them, then nod to each of them as I left the table to report them. The crimpers were just reported. These instances occurred years ago - being alert,creative and polite are part of this game as well. I'll just add that logic is not always a linear process and can be multi-layered. I've lost pots to weaker players just to keep some smart (but greedy) players at the table. I then got the weaker players involved in pots which naturally attracted the tight wads and was able to win a small mountain of chips. This has only happened a few times and does require some luck. Logic and Hand Reading (Day 18 Course Discussion)

#3 May 2nd, 2020, 8:22 PM

Thanks for this one.

I find this to be a very frustrating skill. Especially with folks trying to play a GTO style where the intent appears to be to play a mixed game at every opportunity, and making any action possible at any moment.

I bought James Sweeney's book an Hand Reading in Tournaments Final Tables, and though it was great to work through things, the truth is, I play with people that could check a monster, or could bet a monster, just as they could check a weak hand or bet a weak hand. This likely means my reading skills stink. I find myself just chasing my tail around and around in circles.

The only way for me out of this then is to settle in on pre-flop range estimates and to not really remove hands from this original range. It is logical to eliminate QQ+ from the range if the player doesn't bet or raise, but yet, many players nowadays are doing exactly that. So in my opinion it is best to keep those hands in their possible range and play accordingly. This is probably too conservative, but in the end, all I have done is to reduce my equity by some level. If I play to my equity, I should be OK, right?

#4 May 5th, 2020, 10:17 PM

Very true Polytarp, you have to be careful particularly in the smaller live rooms.

NW, Yes that's definitely true. Keep in mind there are no exact answers. You can discount hands in a range, or think some are particularly likely. But ultimately even the best players will be surprised a lot, I guarantee that Logic and Hand Reading (Day 18 Course Discussion)

#5 May 6th, 2020, 8:16 PM

Most players at the micro levels either play erratic which makes it impossible to analyze and read or they play ABC poker. The latter are easier to read, but not as easy to extract money from.

#6 May 9th, 2020, 5:13 PM

I am finding that, although still nowhere near perfect, I am already getting better at hand reading since taking this course. At micro, as PsychoVas says, it can be almost impossible currently with so many just throwing stuff around, but there are some players in the mix that you can tell are decent, regs, or at least trying (like myself) - and I find that I can often tell what they might have.

I'll watch (because I rarely join in with all the madness) and find that I can identify ranges and sometimes even the exact hand. Just wish I could do as well when I was 'in' the hand, lol! - weird how you can become less objective in those situations, hehe Logic and Hand Reading (Day 18 Course Discussion)

#7 May 11th, 2020, 4:12 PM

Originally Posted by cferdi

I am finding that, although still nowhere near perfect, I am already getting better at hand reading since taking this course. At micro, as PsychoVas says, it can be almost impossible currently with so many just throwing stuff around, but there are some players in the mix that you can tell are decent, regs, or at least trying (like myself) - and I find that I can often tell what they might have.

I'll watch (because I rarely join in with all the madness) and find that I can identify ranges and sometimes even the exact hand. Just wish I could do as well when I was 'in' the hand, lol! - weird how you can become less objective in those situations, hehe Logic and Hand Reading (Day 18 Course Discussion)

Yep - it is not effective on every player - but you can get some reads on some of them even at micro stakes. Gotta take every edge we can get. Logic and Hand Reading (Day 18 Course Discussion)

#8 May 11th, 2020, 10:31 PM

It is also not my favorite skill to guess the opponent's hand ranges because I have an easier time observing the behavior of the villains about irregular or very high bets for the hands that go to the showdown.

But I also know that, even if it is not a 100% accurate science, this tool is essential at certain times of the tournament, when the villain may be short or large stacke may have a wider range, or even a tight one at a time of bubble to the prize, will not play all possible hands, as long as the ante does not consume it before entering the prize.

Anyway, I believe that my speed when playing does not follow the whole play to see if the action is consistent with the trail until the showdown and confront with the reading of hands that I did previously and improve this technique.

But I believe that the reading of ranges, the actions of the villain and the trackins that we will see next can give me an idea of how to move better online, since my technique is not dependent only on the machine but is auxiliary.

Good luck and lest movie foward Logic and Hand Reading (Day 18 Course Discussion)

#9 May 13th, 2020, 6:50 PM

Jean-Pierre and Cferdi, it sounds like you're both already improving a lot at this skill!

Originally Posted by PsychoVas

Most players at the micro levels either play erratic which makes it impossible to analyze and read or they play ABC poker. The latter are easier to read, but not as easy to extract money from.

Even erratic players can usually be analyzed + hand reading applied to some extent. For example, unless your opponent is playing literally every hand, if they enter the pot from UTG it's very unlikely they hold two low offsuit cards.

#10 May 13th, 2020, 7:24 PM

I still find this information useful although I am much better at hand reading in live compared to what I feel like I would be online because in-person I have a knack for spotting tells and observation. Of course, even in live poker, betting patterns is a huge component to hand reading - betting patterns simply give us a ton of information in any context.

#11 May 14th, 2020, 4:16 PM

Finished Day #18.

Beginners and people who struggle with the concept of hand reading should study this chapter very well. The way this concept is being analysed is very understandable, plus there are two good examples in the course (especially the hand 18.2). and after that, watch the video.

Today's answers:

i)I think it's either KK or 1010. I don't think opponent would 3bet a 5x open-raise + a cold call from the BTN with a weak suited connector. And the same applies with the A10. From KK and 1010, the check on the Q92 two-tone flop and the ~40% cbet on the paired turn makes me think that he probably holds pocket 1010.

ii)I would call here.

Tomorrow with Day #19.

#12 May 16th, 2020, 2:09 PM

For a beginner it is difficult to apply it, that is why this course is important for them, for experienced players it is easier, that is why preparation is important, it is important to prepare by reading this type of course, I think it is also important to know your opponents to apply the logic and read your opponent, excellent everything I read, thanks Cardschat

#13 May 16th, 2020, 9:05 PM

Hand reading is a very fun aspect of the game of poker. It feel absolutely great when you get it right, then you are able to maximize the money made in the hand.

This is why I enjoy placing good size bets on the turn when I suspect villain is on a draw. Another nice spot which hurts when you are on the receiving end is when a player has top pair and is betting into an over pair. This is especially lucrative when the hand has to be protected from a draw. It can get really wild, fast!

This is all part of the excitement and appeal of the game.

Response to video question:

A pre-flop pot bet is consistent with a high pocket pair or AK and maybe AQs for some players. Post flop however, villain now changes from a pot bet to a little over a third of the pot. This does not indicate that villain wants to build a huge post to get his stack in on the river. So with the choices given, I would choose pocket 10's.

Outside of the choices I think villain can have AK of spades. This is consistent with his betting pattern.

In response to villain, I would raise to $1100. This bet serves two purposes. It gives villain a chance to clarify the strength of his hand, as he most certainly should be thinking I have AQ or KQ at the very least. The other reason is for protection, just in case villain has AKs on a draw. Hopefilly, if villain has AQ, he would make some kind of stand here.

This is definitely a tough spot and the information very insightful. I would be very relieved if villain folds here!

#14 May 19th, 2020, 5:23 PM

Originally Posted by redboy23

Hand reading is a very fun aspect of the game of poker. It feel absolutely great when you get it right, then you are able to maximize the money made in the hand.

This is why I enjoy placing good size bets on the turn when I suspect villain is on a draw. Another nice spot which hurts when you are on the receiving end is when a player has top pair and is betting into an over pair. This is especially lucrative when the hand has to be protected from a draw. It can get really wild, fast!

This is all part of the excitement and appeal of the game.

Response to video question:

A pre-flop pot bet is consistent with a high pocket pair or AK and maybe AQs for some players. Post flop however, villain now changes from a pot bet to a little over a third of the pot. This does not indicate that villain wants to build a huge post to get his stack in on the river. So with the choices given, I would choose pocket 10's.

Outside of the choices I think villain can have AK of spades. This is consistent with his betting pattern.

In response to villain, I would raise to $1100. This bet serves two purposes. It gives villain a chance to clarify the strength of his hand, as he most certainly should be thinking I have AQ or KQ at the very least. The other reason is for protection, just in case villain has AKs on a draw. Hopefilly, if villain has AQ, he would make some kind of stand here.

This is definitely a tough spot and the information very insightful. I would be very relieved if villain folds here!

These are great points and I really like your outlook on hand reading in general! I totally agree that hand reading is a super fun part of playing poker which makes it even more rewarding to continually improve on. Logic and Hand Reading (Day 18 Course Discussion)

#15 May 21st, 2020, 9:31 PM

A very interesting and very important subject, because here comes the factor of psycology, which is one of the basic factors in the poker game.

#16 May 24th, 2020, 6:32 PM

This goes very linked to the information you have about the player and the fealling at the tables, i hve seem manny coments in here talking about players limping hands that were suposed to raise pre flop. The problem is that you can put the same rangues to all players,there are players tipes and each one off the have a diferent rangue off hands. Iff i open in he CO and button call, iff his3bet is 15 and his CC is 10 he has more like a suited comector or a poket pair from 99-, he 3bets all his broadwais and premiun hands,but if the same button that calls have 3,5 3bet and 6 CC them he can have AKo,ATs+,AJo+ and JJ-,so the rangues are complitly diferent.
Also the fealing on the table is very important,once we were advansed in a MTT and a player was only open jamming and in one hand he open 2,5(his stack was the same 18bb,nothing change for him to change his current stille) i was holding JJ and i call with the only intention off setmining becuse i know he was holding a premiun hand,and he check raised the F and he was holding AA,so is important to watch your oponents and put notes when you manage to see with wath he is doing so tipes off muves

#17 May 30th, 2020, 3:39 AM

This video is in my view the one that separates beginner players from pro players. You can bluff your opponent by knowing their range.

Personnal experience:

I was trying to teach my gf poker. She learned well and soon wanted to follow me and try some live experience with my friends and my brother.

She was doing quite well honestly until one specific hand: My brother, extremely analytic and experienced, guessed her exact cards by the way she played a hand against him. She was fiberglassed and just couldn't say a word (and to say that about my gf is really unusual!) She lost soon after, having lost her concentration.

When we got home, she was just convinced my brother had been cheating... Being new to the family at the time, she believed it firmly. Fortunately, years later, she changed her mind both from her own experience (she knows that we can put ranges on the way players play their hand) and from knowing better my brother, a fair guy who'd never cheat.

#18 May 31st, 2020, 6:46 PM

I can't still believe that you can guess someone cards just like that after a few years of playing now. And sorry boyfriend but still many years later I still belive firmly that he cheated one way or another. Please people give your opinion to this post.

Originally Posted by Yanko57

This video is in my view the one that separates beginner players from pro players. You can bluff your opponent by knowing their range.

Personnal experience:

I was trying to teach my gf poker. She learned well and soon wanted to follow me and try some live experience with my friends and my brother.

She was doing quite well honestly until one specific hand: My brother, extremely analytic and experienced, guessed her exact cards by the way she played a hand against him. She was fiberglassed and just couldn't say a word (and to say that about my gf is really unusual!) She lost soon after, having lost her concentration.

When we got home, she was just convinced my brother had been cheating... Being new to the family at the time, she believed it firmly. Fortunately, years later, she changed her mind both from her own experience (she knows that we can put ranges on the way players play their hand) and from knowing better my brother, a fair guy who'd never cheat.

#19 May 31st, 2020, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by Yanko57

This video is in my view the one that separates beginner players from pro players. You can bluff your opponent by knowing their range.

Personnal experience:

I was trying to teach my gf poker. She learned well and soon wanted to follow me and try some live experience with my friends and my brother.

She was doing quite well honestly until one specific hand: My brother, extremely analytic and experienced, guessed her exact cards by the way she played a hand against him. She was fiberglassed and just couldn't say a word (and to say that about my gf is really unusual!) She lost soon after, having lost her concentration.

When we got home, she was just convinced my brother had been cheating... Being new to the family at the time, she believed it firmly. Fortunately, years later, she changed her mind both from her own experience (she knows that we can put ranges on the way players play their hand) and from knowing better my brother, a fair guy who'd never cheat.

Great story - thanks for sharing!

#20 June 8th, 2020, 4:31 AM

Originally Posted by mimietmour

I can't still believe that you can guess someone cards just like that after a few years of playing now. And sorry boyfriend but still many years later I still belive firmly that he cheated one way or another. Please people give your opinion to this post.

I think it's very possible for an experienced player to correctly guess a villain's range especially if the latter was playing ABC poker.

#21 June 8th, 2020, 4:35 AM

Thanks for today's chapter & video. Complements chapter 3 on thinking in ranges well. For the quiz, I think ATs (spades) was also plausible but villain did not bluff on the river when missing the draw so TT became the most likely candidate.

#22 June 9th, 2020, 8:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tux97

I think it's very possible for an experienced player to correctly guess a villain's range especially if the latter was playing ABC poker.

Definitely, and sometimes even a specific hand with a good degree of accuracy. In the case of someone like Negreanu known for doing this, besides very good hand-reading there's often live poker intuition that comes into play.

#23 June 21st, 2020, 7:51 PM

Originally Posted by Tux97

I think it's very possible for an experienced player to correctly guess a villain's range especially if the latter was playing ABC poker.

If only it was that easy for the rest of us! Logic and Hand Reading (Day 18 Course Discussion)

#24 June 23rd, 2020, 4:40 PM

"People can show you hands that don’t make a lot of sense."

I think this quote pretty much defines the CC free rolls! It also seems like (at least in free rolls) the further you get into a tournament the more rational people are.

#25 June 23rd, 2020, 10:48 PM

I think hand reading is one of my biggest strengths. This is one of the first videos, where I had the same thought process as you Collin the whole way through. It's really just an extension of the Day 3 - ranges video.

That busted flush example is usually a pretty easy one to spot and happened earlier today to me. I had trips and he made a huge donk bet on the river, which was very easy to call because I narrowed his range down.

#26 June 24th, 2020, 4:08 PM

I understand correctly, players can enter the game preflop with any hands (depending on the style of the game), and here the key point will be the size of the bets.
If you have a small raise and call, you can expect any preflop cards on hand. If you raise and re-raise with a subsequent call, then these are already quite strong hands.
On other streets, everything will depend on how you hit the board and how likely it is to strengthen your existing hand.
And here the size of bets will be important for narrowing the range of hands of the opponent.

#27 June 27th, 2020, 4:15 PM

A great session both in the book and the video.

In the second example hand where hero has 84o and is heads up against the BB who eventually shows Q9o, it would be interesting to run a session with the hero having Q9 and villain 84o in the BB and see how hand analysis and how hero should play his Q9o.

I will give some thought and get on over to the odds calculator to run it through using what I have learned so far.

Thanks

BB

#28 June 29th, 2020, 7:19 AM

Need to practice my hand reading skills, right now im at 2/10. Just lost at Final Table final 3 because I forgot to put my opponent hands on flush draw he called me twice and I checked river because i have showdown value but I chicken out to call his 30% river bet. I have top pair on the flop with flush draw in board. Opponent showed me busted flush draw. Damn

#29 June 29th, 2020, 8:01 PM

Originally Posted by iveyfan

I think hand reading is one of my biggest strengths. This is one of the first videos, where I had the same thought process as you Collin the whole way through. It's really just an extension of the Day 3 - ranges video.

That busted flush example is usually a pretty easy one to spot and happened earlier today to me. I had trips and he made a huge donk bet on the river, which was very easy to call because I narrowed his range down.

Nice call! You're right for sure, this topic ties in very nicely with Day 3.

Originally Posted by marvinsytan

Need to practice my hand reading skills, right now im at 2/10. Just lost at Final Table final 3 because I forgot to put my opponent hands on flush draw he called me twice and I checked river because i have showdown value but I chicken out to call his 30% river bet. I have top pair on the flop with flush draw in board. Opponent showed me busted flush draw. Damn

Don't worry Marvin, just learn from it and move on. You are taking exactly the right lesson here, which is that you should bluff-catch facing a bet when draws have missed. You'll get him next time!

#30 July 13th, 2020, 10:29 AM

Hand reading comes with game experience! The first three years of the game I didn’t even try to do this, but played on my own hand! Without thinking what the opponent may have! A very important aspect of the game is reading the hands of the opponent!

#31 July 29th, 2020, 9:30 PM

I'm trying to improve my hand reading. Very helpful examples in the video. I did get the quiz question right, but the hand reviews before the quiz, I would not have figured out in the moment.
In the first example (where hero has KT), you don't believe they have a set because they would have raised earlier? What is your thinking about AT? It might make sense, right? But it's just since it's only 1 hand, the probability of it being this exact hand is low so we're not afraid of it?
Same with AA?
And then JQ with a flush draw is just too special as well, and with JQ they wouldn't call earlier bets, right?

#32 September 12th, 2020, 1:53 PM

Originally Posted by lollipopas

I'm trying to improve my hand reading. Very helpful examples in the video. I did get the quiz question right, but the hand reviews before the quiz, I would not have figured out in the moment.
In the first example (where hero has KT), you don't believe they have a set because they would have raised earlier? What is your thinking about AT? It might make sense, right? But it's just since it's only 1 hand, the probability of it being this exact hand is low so we're not afraid of it?
Same with AA?
And then JQ with a flush draw is just too special as well, and with JQ they wouldn't call earlier bets, right?

Let�s take KT as an example.

A set is definitely possible, but there are only 6 of these for him to have (besides final KK combo). Since he also didn�t raise earlier like you said, the combination of his passive line with the few set combos he could have make the busted draw the most likely.

Remember with this and the other examples, you never know for sure! He could have a straight, set, king, or nothing. We�re just figuring out what we think is most likely based on how all streets have gone.

#33 October 18th, 2020, 6:59 PM

I realized during the hand that the opponent's hand ranges may remain the same or narrow, but they cannot expand.
Also, when a thinking player chooses the range of hands they want to play, they turn on logic. It takes into account such factors as: stack depth; position; players sitting behind their backs, etc. They will decide which hand is worth continuing with against the counter-bet, or which hand is worth the value-bet. This means that if I can penetrate and understand the opponent's logic, I can read their hands very well.
Another point I think is to learn and adapt, it is better to take into account this new information received (when the opponent shows us his hand at the showdown) and just adjust accordingly your approach to reading this opponent's hands in the future.

Life is a game , play beautiful

__________________

#34 October 20th, 2020, 9:29 PM

Originally Posted by Good Man

I realized during the hand that the opponent's hand ranges may remain the same or narrow, but they cannot expand.
Also, when a thinking player chooses the range of hands they want to play, they turn on logic. It takes into account such factors as: stack depth; position; players sitting behind their backs, etc. They will decide which hand is worth continuing with against the counter-bet, or which hand is worth the value-bet. This means that if I can penetrate and understand the opponent's logic, I can read their hands very well.
Another point I think is to learn and adapt, it is better to take into account this new information received (when the opponent shows us his hand at the showdown) and just adjust accordingly your approach to reading this opponent's hands in the future.

Life is a game , play beautiful

__________________

That's great how you put it: An opponent's range can narrow, but it shouldn't expand. Exactly.

#35 November 12th, 2020, 10:24 PM

I loved this chapter, as well as I liked the one on the range, I appreciate these lessons a lot, they change our way of seeing the opponent, now we analyze their "personality in poker" more in depth

A very important lesson.
Thanks a lot.

#36 November 23rd, 2020, 8:51 PM

Nice class, now I just need to keep training and training 'till I can figure out when to win lots of money busting some bluffers.

#37 November 24th, 2020, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by carmenzu

I loved this chapter, as well as I liked the one on the range, I appreciate these lessons a lot, they change our way of seeing the opponent, now we analyze their "personality in poker" more in depth

A very important lesson.
Thanks a lot.

Glad to hear that Carmenzu!

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Logic and Hand Reading (Day 18 Course Discussion)

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