Flush draw + Gutshot what do you think of this play?

bodog History for Hand #764648619
Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007-06-17 19:18:11
Table 'Minutemen' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Bolle_007 ($28.25)
Seat 2: Timoteo ($19.15)
Seat 3: Flanders187 ($19.58)
Seat 4: PokerLuck ($30.00)
Seat 5: bw07507 ($31.02)
Seat 6: PizzaMan912 ($1.68)
Seat 7: Slushpuppie ($25.85)
Seat 8: zflyer ($52.97)
------------------------------
NEW HAND
Slushpuppie: posts the small blind $0.10
zflyer: posts the big blind $0.25
--- DEALING POCKETS
bw07507 is dealt [3h,Th]
Bolle_007: folds
Timoteo: calls $0.25
Flanders187: folds
PokerLuck: folds
bw07507: raises $1.25 to $1.50
PizzaMan912: folds
Slushpuppie: folds
zflyer: calls $1.25
Timoteo: folds
--- DEALING FLOP [2h,4s,6h]
zflyer: bets $3.35
bw07507: goes all in $29.52

Is this a +EV move? Theres a chance he folds and even if he calls, ive gotten all my chips in with 2 cards to see with a flush and straight draw

i wouldn't have made the move myself but you have a decent amount of outs and i can understand why you would want your chips in, the thing i don't understand is why you raised pre-flop? what kind of game do you play, i can understand shifting gears in a situation where you have been playing very tightly but T3s would be lucky to get a call from me never mind a raise.

If he folded, great move, if he called, stupid move, unless you hit and won.

Villain as the BB could have any interesting hand, including small connectors or suits.

What happened?

These people are saying it right. If he calls you would have won $5, if he calls you have all $30 at risk for at best 15 outs. Next you need to assume he is not calling and then leading out with seven duce, so he could have an ace high flush draw and shut down those outs, and if he has a stupid hand like 7 8 well there goes your straight draw. If it works out your a great poker player, if he calls and has a set and you don't catch your out, you ganna look like a donkey. I would say you diddn't need to put that much at risk on a draw.

why cant you 3 bet him here it does exactly the same thing as shoving.


and if you 3 bet it is very unlikely he is going to bet on the turn unless he improves so you go to showdown investing a little less.

it is a maniac play and too high risk for your hand strength.

This is a bit of a super aggressive play. The raise was WAY too much after the flop. Granted, you have many outs. But, if your opponent has an Ace, 5 or two hearts (one of which is higher than your ten), your outs are less than what you thought.

Thx for the input guys, heres how the hand went:

zflyer: calls $26.17
zflyer: shows [4h,4d], Three of a Kind, Fours
--- DEALING TURN [Ac]
--- DEALING RIVER [8h]
zflyer: shows [4h,4d], Three of a Kind, Fours
bw07507: shows [3h,Th], a Flush
Hand 764648619:
bw07507: wins main pot($60.89)
with a Flush

I guess my main thinking was lets just stick it all in on the flop so I dont have to make a tricky decision on the turn if I dont hit. I was hoping he was just on a pair, not a set, but i got lucky in the end and took down a big pot. I especially like what u said storm, 3-bet does the same thing here, but he probably wouldve shoved and I would have been committed after the 3-bet in this hand. But the 3 bet I believe is a better way to do this.

bw07507 said:

Thx for the input guys, heres how the hand went:

zflyer: calls $26.17
zflyer: shows [4h,4d], Three of a Kind, Fours
--- DEALING TURN A♣
--- DEALING RIVER 8♥
zflyer: shows [4h,4d], Three of a Kind, Fours
bw07507: shows [3h,Th], a Flush
Hand 764648619:
bw07507: wins main pot($60.89)
with a Flush

I guess my main thinking was lets just stick it all in on the flop so I dont have to make a tricky decision on the turn if I dont hit. I was hoping he was just on a pair, not a set, but i got lucky in the end and took down a big pot. I especially like what u said storm, 3-bet does the same thing here, but he probably wouldve shoved and I would have been committed after the 3-bet in this hand. But the 3 bet I believe is a better way to do this.

Click to expand...

Yup, a 3-bet would be better.

1. Top medium bottom pair might fold, don't think they're gonna call an all-in. they only have to fold it slightly less than 50% of the time to be profitable. -I started a thread on check-raising with a draw. This situation is somewhat similar.

2. Better hands like set(when you have position) will call the 3-bet, maybe check and hope you'll bet out again. If you don't flop a flush or straight, check behind for a free card.

Going all-in , you've about 32.4% equity share of the pot. that's $19.78. You've to invest $26.17, that's 26.17-19.78=-$6.44 each time you pull that move on someone with a set.

Don't know if I'm doing it right, but it's my first time trying to work it out with math... Can someone check?.

P.S. I don't think you're committed if you raise it to $9-$10. You still have 76bb left.

I dont understand the argument that 3-betting is better?

Its not like 3-betting will keep hands we beat in, since right now were behind any pair.

If were gonna raise then shouldnt we maximise fold equity since were only like 45% to win the hand?

So i think all-in >> 3-bet.

alan1983 said:

I dont understand the argument that 3-betting is better?

Its not like 3-betting will keep hands we beat in, since right now were behind any pair.

If were gonna raise then shouldnt we maximise fold equity since were only like 45% to win the hand?

So i think all-in >> 3-bet.

Click to expand...

3-betting in position, you might get Villain to give you a free card on the turn. Since he might think that you'll bet out again on the turn. anyway, that's how I thought

edge-t said:

3-betting in position, you might get Villain to give you a free card on the turn. Since he might think that you'll bet out again on the turn. anyway, that's how I thought

Click to expand...

If he checks turn and its a blank, you check behind? Blank river?

If he leads out blank turn, you fold?

alan1983 said:

If he checks turn and its a blank, you check behind? Blank river?

If he leads out blank turn, you fold?

Click to expand...

it all depends, if the river blanks for course you are folding? why even ask that think that is pretty obvious.

if turn blanks and he leads out then you have decision based on pot odds and amount of bet etc etc etc.

why even ask that

Click to expand...

mmmmmmmm because he could check?

alan1983 said:

mmmmmmmm because he could check?

Click to expand...

ok then you check!

or


bluff!


that was hard.

Ah i see. So you think its wrong to ask what one plans to do on later streets?

So what if its 2 options? Its only 3 for all other streets, lol.......

You dont think one should consider how 2 win the hand if he doesnt hit?

I mean really, just cause you didnt consider the check in your answer and saif fold doesnt mean you should mock the question to validate your first answer.....




Anyway, bw, imo 3-betting means putting in 1/3 of your stack on a hand that youre planning to check behind on when you dont hit. That doesnt seem too good of a plan imo. Youre making the pot big and if you check a blank turn its gonna be hard to bluff a blank river against a made hand, (which is what i was asking) with the pot that big youre probably shoving by the river if you want to bluff him out of a small pair.

And why not minraise instead of 3-betting? If a raise is slowing him down, then wouldnt u be better off making it as small as possible.