Is this a good check back?

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thatgreekdude

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***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (poker stars)
$2.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, June 11, 07:13:26 ET 2014
Table Halley (real money)
Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $4.72 USD ) - VPIP: 17, PFR: 8, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, hands: 12
Seat 2: Player2 ( $1.88 USD ) - VPIP: 22, PFR: 22, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 9
Seat 3: Player3 ( $4.47 USD ) - VPIP: 18, PFR: 11, 3B: 4, AF: 1.1, Hands: 313
Seat 4: Hero ( $3.61 USD ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 11, 3B: 4, AF: 2.4, Hands: 57910
Seat 5: Player5 ( $2.03 USD ) - VPIP: 33, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 1.0, Hands: 3
Seat 6: Player6 ( $1.96 USD ) - VPIP: 0, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 1
Player2 posts small blind [$0.01 USD].
Player3 posts big blind [$0.02 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ac As ]
Hero raises [$0.06 USD]
Player5 folds
Player6 folds
Player1 folds
Player2 folds
Player3 raises [$0.12 USD]
Hero raises [$0.37 USD]
Player3 calls [$0.29 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qd, 4s, 5h ]
Player3 checks
Hero bets [$0.42 USD]
Player3 calls [$0.42 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]
Player3 checks
Hero checks
** Dealing River ** [ 9s ]
Player3 bets [$0.96 USD]
Hero calls [$0.96 USD]
Player3 shows [Qc, Qs ]
Player3 wins $3.50 USD from main pot
Hero doesn't show [Ac, As ]

I figure his range is pretty narrow here, he either has QQ or KK so is checking back the turn the right play here and do we definitely call this river, he value bets KK here aswell right?
 
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Aloparo2012

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I would have done the same thing. The only thing diff if I had the Q's I would have bet bigger at the end. That's just me. If it was bigger pot I may have Checked and hopefully they bet then raise.As far as having A,A Only thing in the end that could beat it would be pocket pair and match the board and that's what happened but odds were in the A,A favor. Happens a lot though.
 
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CrushingSouls

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Why did you check the turn? Unless you have some sort of soul reading ability I don't see this is profitable. You should keep firing then consider folding if he raises.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Why did you check the turn? Unless you have some sort of soul reading ability I don't see this is profitable. You should keep firing then consider folding if he raises.
Agreed. Checking the turn is really bad and lol at his range being QQ/KK only.
 
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thatgreekdude

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Agreed. Checking the turn is really bad and lol at his range being QQ/KK only.
this is zoom poker if you had any knowledge on it you'd know that the majority of people call 4bets IP with a range that consists of JJ+ AK+, don't try and mock me there's not really any need, I checked back and saved myself half a buy in. Jacks don't float this flop nor does AK, narrowed his range down by the time he bet the river i figured he had one of two hands, don't see what's 'lol' about that.. obviously not as good as you.
 
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WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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this is zoom poker if you had any knowledge on it you'd know that the majority of people call 4bets IP with a range that consists of JJ+ AK+, don't try and mock me there's not really any need, I checked back and saved myself half a buy in. Jacks don't float this flop nor does AK, narrowed his range down by the time he bet the river i figured he had one of two hands, don't see what's 'lol' about that.. obviously not as good as you.
Have you ever heard the term "results-oriented thinking"? In the long term you didn't "save yourself half a buy in", you probably cost yourself that must.
 
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thatgreekdude

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Have you ever heard the term "results-oriented thinking"? In the long term you didn't "save yourself half a buy in", you probably cost yourself that must.
yes I have heard of it, what am I getting value from realistically apart from Kings? He has to either have QQ or KK here do you not agree? obviously at a regular table I bet for value here because his range would be a tad wider than it is at zoom.
 
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Sneaky Feet

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I would continue on the turn. If he raises it's a fold. Potentially he could be holding AQ AK KK KQ QQ QJ or pocket lower pairs. He's pretty aggressive pre so there's a lot he could continue/call with and lots of guys call to see the turn. It really depends on your read and what he's done already.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Well even if we assume your range of QQ/KK is 100% correct (I don't) there are twice as many KK combos as QQ combos.
 
dj11

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Agreed. Checking the turn is really bad and lol at his range being QQ/KK only.

Villain did sort of narrow things way down for hero, but other matching pps (44,55,88,99, and even 67)>sets should also be considered.

Villain seems to have wanted Hero to see his cards, and might have checked the hand down all the way just to make that point.

Have to agree that checking the turn was the more expensive option, had HERO bet the (probably) cheaper turn, and Villain again just calls, (which should raise all sorts of red flags for HERO), what does HERO do on the river?

I'm thinking this is a meta game hand. Pre, both Villain and HERO show they are in fight mode. OTF, Villain sees the golden rainbow and is praying HERO has KK, AA, and after all the betting has essentially narrowed it down to those probabilities. So naturally, Villain is more than willing to supply the rope, and is in deep value mode. Villain would obviously be calling any bet.

HERO's 2nd bullet bounced off the nearly invincible Super hand.

Check/check on the turn seems very natural for a variety of reasons. Hero wonders WTF (paying attention to those red flags), and Villain is hoping for at least one more bet.

Could any bet anywhere in this hand have changed the outcome? I think not.
 
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swingro

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this is zoom poker if you had any knowledge on it you'd know that the majority of people call 4bets IP with a range that consists of JJ+ AK+, don't try and mock me there's not really any need, I checked back and saved myself half a buy in. Jacks don't float this flop nor does AK, narrowed his range down by the time he bet the river i figured he had one of two hands, don't see what's 'lol' about that.. obviously not as good as you.
You are not totally wrong. But as WVHillbilly said. You were result oriented.

Suppose villains range was QQ+ as you said
Using Pokerstove you will se why you are a favourite.

Board:Qd5h4s9s


Hero 63.03% 58.03% 5.00% AsAc
Villain 36.97% 31.97% 5.00% QQ+

The KK combos are legit and I think he will play them almost the same way. I do not think taking a note on his minraising with QQ will help you in the future since it is 2NL.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Villain did sort of narrow things way down for hero, but other matching pps (44,55,88,99, and even 67)>sets should also be considered.

Villain seems to have wanted Hero to see his cards, and might have checked the hand down all the way just to make that point.

Have to agree that checking the turn was the more expensive option, had HERO bet the (probably) cheaper turn, and Villain again just calls, (which should raise all sorts of red flags for HERO), what does HERO do on the river?

I'm thinking this is a meta game hand. Pre, both Villain and HERO show they are in fight mode. OTF, Villain sees the golden rainbow and is praying HERO has KK, AA, and after all the betting has essentially narrowed it down to those probabilities. So naturally, Villain is more than willing to supply the rope, and is in deep value mode. Villain would obviously be calling any bet.

HERO's 2nd bullet bounced off the nearly invincible Super hand.

Check/check on the turn seems very natural for a variety of reasons. Hero wonders WTF (paying attention to those red flags), and Villain is hoping for at least one more bet.

Could any bet anywhere in this hand have changed the outcome? I think not.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. I'm not even sure half of it is in English but we don't bet to change the outcome of a hand. The outcome is meaningless.
 
akaRobbo

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Why check the turn? His range definitely isn't just QQ or KK, you're both pretty deep.
 
dj11

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I'm not sure what you're saying here. I'm not even sure half of it is in English but we don't bet to change the outcome of a hand. The outcome is meaningless.

Tis OK WV, I know that when you read anything I say, your eyes gloss over and your blood begins to boil.

Of course the AA is favored pre, and for the most part will be favored throughout the hand, but for a hand analysis, we can't not just blindly assume every bad beat is useless for analysis.

My post was about some of the non math things we should (MHO) be considering.

And take that 'results oriented' rant elsewhere. If we all were NOT results oriented to some degree, we would all be broke. How we approach the game is a results oriented consideration. Doesn't matter how much we think we know, if we don't get results, we stop playing. We learn to make better decisions in hope it will improve our 'results oriented' approach. We each tweak our game constantly, usually in small ways, with a scientific approach toward improvement. We try something new for x hands and evaluate. What were the results of that experiment? Can it be incorporated into our meta game?

We learn that we can not expect the results from a single generalized situation (e.g. AA vs all other hands) to produce a real result, but over x hands we can expect certain results.


* http://www.dailywritingtips.com/the-difference-between-eg-and-ie/
 
Mr Sandbag

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His range is definitely not QQ+ only. In fact, I'd probably never give an unknown credit for KK at all after he flats preflop. QQ isn't even really likely either, IMO. The fact that he shows up with it is meaningless and borderline a cooler. Most of the time you'll be missing out on value.

You should bet every street in this hand. He can have a TON of worse hands (Q10/QJ/KQ/other Qx, plus PP's like JJ/TT are possible).
 
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swingro

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I do not want to argue dj11 but this is 2NL. Other than outs and odds I am not sure it is of so much importance.
 
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swingro

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His range is definitely not QQ+ only. In fact, I'd probably never give an unknown credit for KK at all after he flats preflop. QQ isn't even really likely either, IMO. The fact that he shows up with it is meaningless and borderline a cooler. Most of the time you'll be missing out on value.

You should bet every street in this hand. He can have a TON of worse hands (Q10/QJ/KQ/other Qx, plus PP's like JJ/TT are possible).

He had 300+ hands on him. Not really unknown.
 
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thatgreekdude

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Why check the turn? His range definitely isn't just QQ or KK, you're both pretty deep.

yup i'd guess he could set mine sometimes here, suited connectors (highly doubtful at 2NL but possible), i check because i can't get value from anything, he won't have AQ (reggy stats at zoom), JJ won't call a double barrel, KK is the only hand he'll call with and of course if he has any set he's just going to come over the top or flat on the turn and that leaves me in a tough spot on the river.
 
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thatgreekdude

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His range is definitely not QQ+ only. In fact, I'd probably never give an unknown credit for KK at all after he flats preflop. QQ isn't even really likely either, IMO. The fact that he shows up with it is meaningless and borderline a cooler. Most of the time you'll be missing out on value.

You should bet every street in this hand. He can have a TON of worse hands (Q10/QJ/KQ/other Qx, plus PP's like JJ/TT are possible).

come on man he is never ever going to call QJ/Q10 at zoom to a 4bet, 4bets at zoom are literally only ever AA/KK, calling a 4bet JJ/1010 are both possible but they both fold if i bet the turn anyway because double barreling after 4betting looks super strong..
 
Mr Sandbag

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Well he min-3bet you, so it's safe to assume he's a pretty big fish. Giving a big fish a range of KK+ here is unrealistic when he's probably never folding any of his 3bet range (which is probably wacky as it is). Also safe to assume he's not going to be folding top pair.
 
WVHillbilly

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come on man he is never ever going to call QJ/Q10 at zoom to a 4bet, 4bets at zoom are literally only ever AA/KK, calling a 4bet JJ/1010 are both possible but they both fold if i bet the turn anyway because double barreling after 4betting looks super strong..
Didn't we already establish that even if his range really is only QQ/KK it's still a bet for value?
 
T0mmmi

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Hi !

In my opinion You should have Bet on the Turn as > You would get information if he would Call >then you should realized that pocket Aces are probably not enough unless you have history with Villain where he is bluffing enough times that it is profitable for you to spend more chips in that hand.


By just checking > you gain no information > worst gave Villain more opportunities how to win that hand ( In my opinion if Villain had just Bluffed and he showed > Hero would Folded or ...)

Away Good Luck @TAbles !
 
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