$600 NLHE Full Ring: Live 2/5 Flop Aces up after 3 bet bluff, stack off?

About 10.5 hours into a grueling session. In 2.5 buy ins and it's degen hours of the night / morning. Table has gotten very limp / call happy with a lot of players stuck and trying to chase to get back even.

OTTH: Unstudied but not clueless tight passive opens to $15 with a standard range from HJ (he over-folds to 3 bets, and seems to open more often/wider in position). CO calls super wide vs this small sizing. BU is main V and is a dealer at another room I play at. He has everyone covered and also flats, capping his range. SB tight passive flats. Hero is effective stack with $1265 and looks down at A4hh in the BB and decides to 3 bet bluff to $105 vs a bunch of capped ranges and a wide HJ open. Standard 3 bet sizing I like to use is 4x out of position + 1x per caller = $60 + $45 = 105. Obviously we are folding to any 4 bet. Only button V calls.

Flop (~$250 after rake): Ac8d4s
Feels like the effective nuts. V should be folding A8, 88, and 44 here pre almost always. AA should be 3 betting in front of us a lot and 4 betting behind us a lot, plus it's only one combo. We decide to down bet to 1/4 pot but mess up the quick math and bet $45. V clicks it back to $100. We have a ton of JJ+ here that is scared of the Ace and the dealer V knows this. I'm a tight player in general so this dealer has likely never seen Hero 3 bet bluff a hand like this. Here is where we may go off the rails a bit. I'm putting V on a strong Ace here like AJ+ that didn't 3 bet. Since we are fairly deep Hero decides to 3 bet the flop to set up a turn jam. If we were in position I would just call and allow V to keep betting. Anyway we make it $300 to go. We are repping a very thin range of sets and maybe AK so we are ok with polarizing. If we take it down we may have lost some value but if we get called we can jam pretty much every turn card. Probably too ambitious but I also like it because it looks bluffy on a dry board. V tanks then calls.

Turn ($850): Ac8d4s 7c
We tank a bit and then jam $850. V asks for a count, tanks for several minutes. Counts it off. Makes the call.

Did I overplay the flop here or is this a fine aggressive line? I just didn't want to flat the flop raise then the turn goes x/x and river goes bet / call. If we do flat flop and V bets turn we have to raise then right? Otherwise river is even more likely x/x. It felt like the best way to get stacks in was to 3 bet flop in the moment. But maybe I'm being too greedy.

c0rnBr34d said:

About 10.5 hours into a grueling session. In 2.5 buy ins and it's degen hours of the night / morning. Table has gotten very limp / call happy with a lot of players stuck and trying to chase to get back even.

OTTH: Unstudied but not clueless tight passive opens to $15 with a standard range from HJ (he over-folds to 3 bets, and seems to open more often/wider in position). CO calls super wide vs this small sizing. BU is main V and is a dealer at another room I play at. He has everyone covered and also flats, capping his range. SB tight passive flats. Hero is effective stack with $1265 and looks down at A4hh in the BB and decides to 3 bet bluff to $105 vs a bunch of capped ranges and a wide HJ open. Standard 3 bet sizing I like to use is 4x out of position + 1x per caller = $60 + $45 = 105. Obviously we are folding to any 4 bet. Only button V calls.

Flop (~$250 after rake): Ac8d4s
Feels like the effective nuts. V should be folding A8, 88, and 44 here pre almost always. AA should be 3 betting in front of us a lot and 4 betting behind us a lot, plus it's only one combo. We decide to down bet to 1/4 pot but mess up the quick math and bet $45. V clicks it back to $100. We have a ton of JJ+ here that is scared of the Ace and the dealer V knows this. I'm a tight player in general so this dealer has likely never seen Hero 3 bet bluff a hand like this. Here is where we may go off the rails a bit. I'm putting V on a strong Ace here like AJ+ that didn't 3 bet. Since we are fairly deep Hero decides to 3 bet the flop to set up a turn jam. If we were in position I would just call and allow V to keep betting. Anyway we make it $300 to go. We are repping a very thin range of sets and maybe AK so we are ok with polarizing. If we take it down we may have lost some value but if we get called we can jam pretty much every turn card. Probably too ambitious but I also like it because it looks bluffy on a dry board. V tanks then calls.

Turn ($850): Ac8d4s 7c
We tank a bit and then jam $850. V asks for a count, tanks for several minutes. Counts it off. Makes the call.

Did I overplay the flop here or is this a fine aggressive line? I just didn't want to flat the flop raise then the turn goes x/x and river goes bet / call. If we do flat flop and V bets turn we have to raise then right? Otherwise river is even more likely x/x. It felt like the best way to get stacks in was to 3 bet flop in the moment. But maybe I'm being too greedy.

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Over play.
You may have induced a bluff raise with the small flop bet (It looks fishy), but when you re-raise and get called, your usually beat with top and bottom pair. I can't imagine getting all in deep stacked with a hand that you beat.

GWU73 said:

Over play.
You may have induced a bluff raise with the small flop bet (It looks fishy), but when you re-raise and get called, your usually beat with top and bottom pair. I can't imagine getting all in deep stacked with a hand that you beat.

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I tend to agree looking back at the hand but there are just so few combos that beat us and none of them should be here on flop as played, maybe a sticky 88 is all. After the fumble on the flop down bet I was almost fine with taking it down on the flop. The tank wasn't Hollywood though. I felt live reads was a major part of being ok with stacking off on the turn. Once the SPR is 1 what other choices do we have? We can't really x/f right?

So if we flat flop and check turn what's our plan if he check behind or if he bets? Just x/c down and value bet river if he checks turn?

Yes, in general it is an aggressive line from BB. You managed to collect an important flop hand, for which it is an ideal time to look for all the value from the BB. Realistically, there are only 2 free aces left to place AX combos, in the range of the dealer friend.
That would be the ideal scenario. Because the low range of v really bothers us in this texture, so it is preferable to remove it now, without further ado. And is better to isolate with the upper section of its range. (In this part we look for overcars, double minor couples, etc. that pay us).
As for the betting sizes, the structure was very correct in my opinion. Maybe I would have bet a little more on 3-bet. (Only with the strategic objective of reducing the pot bet ratio on the turn, to a smaller proportion, for example about 2/3 of the boat)
In addition, a greater degree of aggressiveness in our 3-bet (not super aggressiveness) reduces the probability of eliminating projects of gutshots that could improve on the turn, in the range of the villain located in btn.
If we play call from 2bet-flop, we will probably look for an induction on the turn. But for this point, we must have a finer idea about the btn. I refer to the frequency of aggressiveness and post-flop increases, which this villain normally performs. In reality is a more complex scenario (we need more information) to execute. But given the texture of board, I lean more for your sequence. In preflop your line seemed appropriate, taking advantage of your image perceived by the table.
Regards.

Did you say what V had yet? I can't imagine him tanking that long and winning the hand unless he's that bad and has the only 44 combo. If he had AA or 88 I would probably punch the guy in the face for tanking so long on those obvious calls. A8 and A7 would be annoying. To me this feels like AJ or AQ suited, maybe AK if he doesn't know what he's doing.

You made this a weird spot with that weird error bet on the flop. Because his clickback raise can easily be trying to exploit weakness. The more I think about this, I think calling is best to pot control a bit. Better not to get allin with this holding. I would call and check back turn, if he checks that's pretty annoying but I doubt that happens. Broadway aces probably fire another bullet thinking you have JJ-KK.

gustav197poker said:

Yes, in general it is an aggressive line from BB. You managed to collect an important flop hand, for which it is an ideal time to look for all the value from the BB. Realistically, there are only 2 free aces left to place AX combos, in the range of the dealer friend.
That would be the ideal scenario. Because the low range of v really bothers us in this texture, so it is preferable to remove it now, without further ado. And is better to isolate with the upper section of its range. (In this part we look for overcars, double minor couples, etc. that pay us).
As for the betting sizes, the structure was very correct in my opinion. Maybe I would have bet a little more on 3-bet. (Only with the strategic objective of reducing the pot bet ratio on the turn, to a smaller proportion, for example about 2/3 of the boat)
In addition, a greater degree of aggressiveness in our 3-bet (not super aggressiveness) reduces the probability of eliminating projects of gutshots that could improve on the turn, in the range of the villain located in btn.
If we play call from 2bet-flop, we will probably look for an induction on the turn. But for this point, we must have a finer idea about the btn. I refer to the frequency of aggressiveness and post-flop increases, which this villain normally performs. In reality is a more complex scenario (we need more information) to execute. But given the texture of board, I lean more for your sequence. In preflop your line seemed appropriate, taking advantage of your image perceived by the table.
Regards.

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Thanks, interesting take on flop 3 bet sizing. I was expecting hands as weak as gut shots to fold for this 3 bet sizing. On a dry flop like this I was probably targeting too narrow of a range since only a big Ace, a sticky bluff catch, or a hand that beats me should continue. But it was a weird spot with the flop under bet size and his raise didn't seem like a bluff. I had not played with him before so I wasn't sure how he would proceed. He tends to be aggressive and can be sticky but it's only a small sample. He has seen me play many times though as a dealer in the other room.

kkonicke said:

Did you say what V had yet? I can't imagine him tanking that long and winning the hand unless he's that bad and has the only 44 combo. If he had AA or 88 I would probably punch the guy in the face for tanking so long on those obvious calls. A8 and A7 would be annoying. To me this feels like AJ or AQ suited, maybe AK if he doesn't know what he's doing.

You made this a weird spot with that weird error bet on the flop. Because his clickback raise can easily be trying to exploit weakness. The more I think about this, I think calling is best to pot control a bit. Better not to get allin with this holding. I would call and check back turn, if he checks that's pretty annoying but I doubt that happens. Broadway aces probably fire another bullet thinking you have JJ-KK.

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No, I'll share results tomorrow if anyone wants to know. I typically dont include results in posts as they bias the responses.

Yea I meant to grab 2 green and 3 red but I grabbed 1 green and 4 red instead. We may have still induced a raise but I think I can more comfortably flat if I make it $65 and he clicks back to $140 ish. When it's only $100 on the flop and the pot is so large it's like I just lead for less than half pot still. I really want to 3 bet here to put stacks in play since we have this flop so crushed and have V showing interest and we are out of position. I can't imagine the tanks with any set. A8 should also pretty easily call the 3 bet on the flop. I guess he could have A4 also or a Broadway Ace or a really annoying scared A7 (but I doubt it). Thinking back it may indeed be better flop the flop raise and check turn and hope he doesn't check behind. A bad run out could cause V to get away from AJ+ though. So I went for the home run since I felt like we had him on the hook.

Well, misplaying with the bet size almost always puts you in an awkward spot, as normally you never play like this.
As played, 3-betting the flop is a bit too aggressive for a hand like this. I wouldn't exclude hands like A8s and especially 88 from his range, as you're really deep and he has position on you. I'd much prefer to do this with top two or better instead.

As played, jamming is OK. You're not really check/folding here, and betting at least targets some hands like AQ, AJ, 9c8c (if he plays them like that).

Here are some addictions that I think.Hands probably eliminated in preflop, of rank v,: 5-9; 5-7; 6-9; 3-7; 4-8.
Hands that can seep into the flop: A-K; A-Q; A-J; A-T; A-5; Q-Q; J-J; T-T; 9-9. J-Ts.
Probable hands of a very aggressive range, which could continue in the flop: J-9s; T-9s; 7-8s; 6-7s.
That is, the range v is mostly polarized throughout the high and medium structure. We have from TPTK, to possible minor doubles to ours. Also on the turn, a color line opens for the villain, which implies an excellent opportunity to induce equiity.
I find the villain's bet on the flop very weak. This size can tell us that there are still combinations in the v range, that they are playing with a certain value (possible AX) or it is really an inadequate size, which needs a significant increase. You don't have the best possible hand and the villain could improve on the turn.
Your flop cbet is correct against this type of apparently aggressive player. When you bet low on these types of boards, you are representing a middle hand. Probably not the best possible. In front of tighter players, I would lean to a larger size of cbet in the flop.
I think your game in general was suitable for this particular villain.

I believe we took the riskiest line possible to maximize value. Figuring the capped Vil can be very polarized. I'm not saying it's wrong, I think it's just a style choice. For the style choice you made you played it 100% correctly IMO. With that said this is the way I would have played it, with a chance of not pulling as much value as you did, but I'm not assuming as much risk either....

I would have flat pre, and I'm sure you are asking, "Why!?"

Well, for 1 we are OOP in a multiway pot, if we 3Bet, then that means we should be CBetting a lot of the time. By 3Betting on a missed board, or even a top pair A. We might be CBetting and taking ourselves to value town, and we might not even get the pot heads up either.

2 A4s is a great hand that plays multiway, we either hit or we dont, as for our range we are super wide with hands that have a ton of board coverage. Argueably, giving us better equity against in a 3 way or 4 way pot against opener and the capped ranges. Combine this with that fact we are almost never donk betting in a multiway pot regaurdless if we hit or not, means we check our good hands and our bad hands giving us amazing balance. Allowing us to be very risk adverice... compared to 3betting then Cbetting a lot to stay balanced causing us to assume more risk, but not always getting the same value....

Like I said before by 3Betting OOP, and how you played the rest of the hand post fits the style needed to play correctly. Let's take a second and look at how this hand would have played if we just flat pre....

We flat with 4 callers in at 15? Sorry cant go back and see the hand.... so we are looking at a $60 pot? We flop 2 pair, on a dry unconnected board. Like I said before, we arent gonna donk, so we check. Now depending on the size of the bet to come, and player type of vil. If I believe I can get value on a check raise I will. If I think I will scare them off, I'll check raise turn for value in Hopes they might have picked up a back door or something. If Vil is question is passive, chances are they would check, but I believe 1 of the other 2 players left to act will probably bet. At 2/5, degens, I'm more then likely check raising, betting thin for value on a ton of turns, and either check calling river, or bombing river for value if I believe I'm good....

So let's assume I check raise, and get called, with the 7 that matches the A.... I know the only way I lose here is if they are slow playing a set, or they spiked a higher 2 pair on the turn. So since I check raised the flop we are probably looking at a $340 with hero frist to act on the turn. We have to bet, but I want to bet thin to get bare A to call, super sticky back doors/middle pairs good kicker, even back door straights, and since we bloated the pot OOP. We bet small for pot control so we can check all most rivers if we do get a call on the turn. So we bet out around $120-$140 into $340.... if they raise that we are probably beat, and can make a hero fold depending on the size, and if it's a jam for like $550 or less I'm calling cause Vil knows we sized them up forcing them to make a less then 1 SPR river call on all rivers. So the smart play for Vil is to maximize fold equity with 100% of thier range that holds any kind of equity.... chances are though I would say 4-5 times we are getting a fold on the turn.... cause in Vil spot calling with anything less then an A, or a draw is for sure a mistake....

Even though we get a ton of folds on the turn, let's assume we do get a call.... thinking about what is to come on the river chances are we are just check calling most rivers. Unless it's another Spade, or the board pairs, and they fire out like $550+ (not all in) into a 580-620 pot, and we are only betting river if we get stronger. Like with an A or a 4, cause we need to get value from the nuts....

You see where by playing it my ways it makes it easier to range our Vil? Compared to being super agressive and possibly taking ourselves to value town?

Thanks for all the insights. I agree that the fumble on the flop bet complicated the line. In tend to take @JBGoode's suggested line more often, also open fold often but for this price in the big blind folding is too nitty. I think I still prefer 3 betting with this particular line up. Against tougher Vs I would flat and hope to hit bingo. 3 betting this line up takes it down sometimes and gets us heads up a lot. Very rarely do we still play mutli way. We can still check bad flops or use the 1/3 down bet and fold to a raise. In general we shouldn't be getting called on the flop and turn by hands we beat, so I agree it does feel like an overplay. But it is degen time so we went with our read. It's much safer to flat flop and x / eval from there after making the sizing mistake.

I think it is not good to take line like this. Your rep flop range should be very polarized once you 3bet and villain continuance range will be AQ+ with BDFD and 2pairs+.

Top bottom 2 pairs OOP are not good against V linear range and I expect villain would fold all big aces on the turn.

quant1986 said:

I think it is not good to take line like this. Your rep flop range should be very polarized once you 3bet and villain continuance range will be AQ+ with BDFD and 2pairs+.

Top bottom 2 pairs OOP are not good against V linear range and I expect villain would fold all big aces on the turn.

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Getting a turn fold isn't that terrible is it? So what do we do on the turn? SPR is 1. We can check and let AQ+ draw to a better two pair for free, or we can jam and fold them out while winning a nice pot. This also gives hands like AK a chance to make a mistake and try to bluff catch. If we are beat we can't really x/f turn or river at this point can we?

c0rnBr34d said:

Getting a turn fold isn't that terrible is it? So what do we do on the turn? SPR is 1. We can check and let AQ+ draw to a better two pair for free, or we can jam and fold them out while winning a nice pot. This also gives hands like AK a chance to make a mistake and try to bluff catch. If we are beat we can't really x/f turn or river at this point can we?

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This turn card improved your range equity more than villain's range as I believe you have more 65s in this spot. If villain does have AK/AQ combos, they are drawing very thin and your turn bet could be smaller to get another call. Of course if you try to level villain then jamming turn is fine, as played I don't think you can fold (perhaps only when turn card is another 8)

The issue is that competent player may only call with 44, A4dd, AQdd and 88 after your flop 3bet and this flop 3bet will be a -EV line , unless villain flop raise contains a lot of air that folds to 3bet.

If V is that competent then they must also realize that any turn bet is essentially a jam since the river SPR will be trivial and no one will be able to fold. I guess there may be some tiny chance that the river could go x/x depending on the run out. But in general betting less than all in should look stronger than jamming instead of weaker, no? Which hands can / should call or re-shove 1/2 pot that can / should fold to a lead jam? Seems like we are splitting hairs on the turn.

I agree that the flop 3 bet may not be the most +EV line as it was an adjustment to try and compensate for a prior mistake, but I strongly disagree that it is -EV given our tiny c-bet (sizing mistake) and the narrow range that has us beat in a 3 bet pot. A competent player may fold his entire range that we beat but in all those cases we still win the hand and deny equity (+EV). To say that this V has more hands that beat us after raising our tiny flop bet seems MUBSy to me. Any Ace that calls a 3 bet could be raising here and that's already more combos than the sets and 2 pair that have us beat. If V has any bluffs with any equity besides Ax then that only makes it more +EV.

c0rnBr34d said:

About 10.5 hours into a grueling session. In 2.5 buy ins and it's degen hours of the night / morning. Table has gotten very limp / call happy with a lot of players stuck and trying to chase to get back even.

OTTH: Unstudied but not clueless tight passive opens to $15 with a standard range from HJ (he over-folds to 3 bets, and seems to open more often/wider in position). CO calls super wide vs this small sizing. BU is main V and is a dealer at another room I play at. He has everyone covered and also flats, capping his range. SB tight passive flats. Hero is effective stack with $1265 and looks down at A4hh in the BB and decides to 3 bet bluff to $105 vs a bunch of capped ranges and a wide HJ open. Standard 3 bet sizing I like to use is 4x out of position + 1x per caller = $60 + $45 = 105. Obviously we are folding to any 4 bet. Only button V calls.

Flop (~$250 after rake): Ac8d4s
Feels like the effective nuts. V should be folding A8, 88, and 44 here pre almost always. AA should be 3 betting in front of us a lot and 4 betting behind us a lot, plus it's only one combo. We decide to down bet to 1/4 pot but mess up the quick math and bet $45. V clicks it back to $100. We have a ton of JJ+ here that is scared of the Ace and the dealer V knows this. I'm a tight player in general so this dealer has likely never seen Hero 3 bet bluff a hand like this. Here is where we may go off the rails a bit. I'm putting V on a strong Ace here like AJ+ that didn't 3 bet. Since we are fairly deep Hero decides to 3 bet the flop to set up a turn jam. If we were in position I would just call and allow V to keep betting. Anyway we make it $300 to go. We are repping a very thin range of sets and maybe AK so we are ok with polarizing. If we take it down we may have lost some value but if we get called we can jam pretty much every turn card. Probably too ambitious but I also like it because it looks bluffy on a dry board. V tanks then calls.

Turn ($850): Ac8d4s 7c
We tank a bit and then jam $850. V asks for a count, tanks for several minutes. Counts it off. Makes the call.

Did I overplay the flop here or is this a fine aggressive line? I just didn't want to flat the flop raise then the turn goes x/x and river goes bet / call. If we do flat flop and V bets turn we have to raise then right? Otherwise river is even more likely x/x. It felt like the best way to get stacks in was to 3 bet flop in the moment. But maybe I'm being too greedy.

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Thank U 4 Posting

I have not looked at any results as to not skew my thoughts.

If your goal was to stack your villain why would you make a 3 bet on the flop that represented the range you describe?

All of the descriptors you use for this situation are, it is degen time, you are stuck, villain is ahead for the night with a big stack, all suggest that this villain on the button, in a hit or fold spot, could have A8s 88 and 44 even A7s. Why would you say villain does not? This is not a combos question but a psychology of villain in situation question.

If villain is bluff clicking flop why are we blowing out his bluffs?
If villain is trying to buy a showdown with Axs backdoor what play is best to stack them?

Could we think that flop raise is bluff or nuts, then we might know, we cannot or do not want to, play for stacks?

If we think villian only has AK AQ AJ can we know villain will not think we have 88 or 44?

If we know villain has AJ+ range only, could we not lead big flop, pot or larger and shove blank turns?
Could we get villain to min clik on flop and call off doing this? If we think the range is exactly AJ+
If villain has AcJc on the turn villain has 38% equity, a fold would not be an ugly thing in that spot.
We should remember why we raised in the first place. It was not to isolate a button with an AJ+ range. So if we believe this is villains only range should we be trying to get all-in before the river, if as you said it was a call happy time of night and we cannot get villain to fold their equity but they will pay off on missed rivers?


Just some thoughts.

Hope this helps

Thanks, I haven't shared results but kudos for not looking for them. The flop is a bit of a mess. Here's how I looked at it. The 3 bet to $300 is still only equal to a single pot sized bet. So while normally it would be super polarizing I made the spot really awkward by downbetting too small by accident. I went with my gut that we were ahead and may continue to get action as V is still getting close to 4 to 1 to call on the flop and our line looks very fishy given the mistake. Once we get V to call flop we have an SPR 1 turn spot where we can shove often and put V in a really tough spot. I did not mean to suggest that we had V on only AJ+ at any point in the hand. But 3 bet continuing ranges rarely included hands as weak as A7 and A8. 44 and 88 are possible but with $1,250 effective V does not really have good odds to set mine so V should be folding at least most of the time. Obviously I could be wrong but in general those hands are less likely in a 3 bet pot when the 3 bet comes from a tighter player. I was also factoring in body language and reaction time. Villain would be faking concern if they actually had a set and would need much less time to act. Again, I could be wrong but Vs concern seemed real.

To the degen, call happy, table vibe this was indeed the case. But 3 bet pots were still fairly rare and ranges were much narrower in 3 bet pots. If people were still calling with any 2 card in 3 bet pots then I would not have elected to bluff the A4hh. I was expecting his continuing pre flop range to look something like ATs+, AJo+, TT+ with the top end of that range 3 betting in front of me. Maybe a sticky suited broadway hand as well. But those should all be folding flop.

c0rnBr34d said:

Thanks, I haven't shared results but kudos for not looking for them. The flop is a bit of a mess. Here's how I looked at it. The 3 bet to $300 is still only equal to a single pot sized bet. So while normally it would be super polarizing I made the spot really awkward by downbetting too small by accident. I went with my gut that we were ahead and may continue to get action as V is still getting close to 4 to 1 to call on the flop and our line looks very fishy given the mistake. Once we get V to call flop we have an SPR 1 turn spot where we can shove often and put V in a really tough spot. I did not mean to suggest that we had V on only AJ+ at any point in the hand. But 3 bet continuing ranges rarely included hands as weak as A7 and A8. 44 and 88 are possible but with $1,250 effective V does not really have good odds to set mine so V should be folding at least most of the time. Obviously I could be wrong but in general those hands are less likely in a 3 bet pot when the 3 bet comes from a tighter player. I was also factoring in body language and reaction time. Villain would be faking concern if they actually had a set and would need much less time to act. Again, I could be wrong but Vs concern seemed real.

To the degen, call happy, table vibe this was indeed the case. But 3 bet pots were still fairly rare and ranges were much narrower in 3 bet pots. If people were still calling with any 2 card in 3 bet pots then I would not have elected to bluff the A4hh. I was expecting his continuing pre flop range to look something like ATs+, AJo+, TT+ with the top end of that range 3 betting in front of me. Maybe a sticky suited broadway hand as well. But those should all be folding flop.

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Thank U 4 Responding

Still have not seen results

So to be clear villains range has no AA no KK no AKs?

It does have QQ-1010 AQ-A10 and AQs-A10s

You stated villain expects us to have 0 bluffs. Let u assume that is 100% correct.

So when we small bet -3 bet pot bet with 0 bluffs what should villain be doing with their range?

Do we want them to do that when we have two pair?

Count your villains flop calling combos and folding combos based on you making 0 bluffs what do you notice?

If we have 0 bluffs our villain should only be calling with hands that beat our 3 bet value range. What would that range be? What would villain have to be calling with to be ahead of that range?

Just in case you might think otherwise KK would be a 3 bet bluff here, if we are holding KK there are more villain AX combos. Usually all the AX call flop and the QQ-1010 fold so would we want to 3 bet KK?

You stated you wanted to stack your villain on the flop when you hit a good but beatable hand. How do we stack QQ-1010 with 0 bluffs? How do we stack AJ-A10off with 0 bluffs?

Now for your villain thinking you have no 3 bet bluffs. This is a live non professional player, they WANT to think you have bluffs. They WILL think you have bluffs. They will stop and think this guy is pushing me off of my hand screw that. Your villain stopped to think so either villain thought you had AA and could he fold 88 or villain thought this guy is stuck and has QQ and wants me to fold.

While playing in a live saty I was card dead for several orbits so I seemed like the tightest player on the table. Then I flopped a set of 10's on A10x I bet one caller, turn blank. I tanked and shoved turn for 3x pot the villain insta called with A7 one pair no draw.

The villain thought the tightest player on the table had KK and would shove it and I knew he would. There is no such thing live as villain knowing you have no bluffs.

Hope this helps

Where did I say we have zero bluffs? I think it's reasonable to cbet very often on this flop with our entire 3 bet range. I wouldn't consider 99+ a bluff unless we know for a fact that V has exactly Ax. I am also counting on V being suspicious that we are not super strong. If I thought he would fold with every hand that we beat for sure then I would be less aggressive. I like the idea of giving V a chance to make a mistake by being aggressive with a strong but not nutted hand exactly the same way you got snap called by A7 drawing dead vs a set of tens. I only mentioned the most likely combos. Of course V could be doing some crazy slow play with the one combo of AA but it is very unlikely so I am comfortable being aggressive in this case.

c0rnBr34d said:

Where did I say we have zero bluffs? I think it's reasonable to cbet very often on this flop with our entire 3 bet range. I wouldn't consider 99+ a bluff unless we know for a fact that V has exactly Ax. I am also counting on V being suspicious that we are not super strong. If I thought he would fold with every hand that we beat for sure then I would be less aggressive. I like the idea of giving V a chance to make a mistake by being aggressive with a strong but not nutted hand exactly the same way you got snap called by A7 drawing dead vs a set of tens. I only mentioned the most likely combos. Of course V could be doing some crazy slow play with the one combo of AA but it is very unlikely so I am comfortable being aggressive in this case.

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Thanks 4 Responding

I'm a tight player in general so this dealer has likely never seen Hero 3 bet bluff a hand like this.


This statement is suggestive of the villain not expecting you to bluff.

Apparently I misinterpreted your intention when you included this statement.

:ciao::wavey:

Yes, this was just to suggest that my perceived 3 bet range probably does not include two pair hands on this flop. It may look more like AQ+, TT+. Obviously the range narrows when I also 3 bet flop and may confuse V. Especially if they hold an Ace blocker.

LOL, I miss live poker so much I was looking back at old posts. I realized I never shared results as promised for this hand. Since it was such a large pot I still remember this one fairly clearly.

c0rnBr34d said:

About 10.5 hours into a grueling session. In 2.5 buy ins and it's degen hours of the night / morning. Table has gotten very limp / call happy with a lot of players stuck and trying to chase to get back even.

OTTH: Unstudied but not clueless tight passive opens to $15 with a standard range from HJ (he over-folds to 3 bets, and seems to open more often/wider in position). CO calls super wide vs this small sizing. BU is main V and is a dealer at another room I play at. He has everyone covered and also flats, capping his range. SB tight passive flats. Hero is effective stack with $1265 and looks down at A4hh in the BB and decides to 3 bet bluff to $105 vs a bunch of capped ranges and a wide HJ open. Standard 3 bet sizing I like to use is 4x out of position + 1x per caller = $60 + $45 = 105. Obviously we are folding to any 4 bet. Only button V calls.

Flop (~$250 after rake): Ac8d4s
Feels like the effective nuts. V should be folding A8, 88, and 44 here pre almost always. AA should be 3 betting in front of us a lot and 4 betting behind us a lot, plus it's only one combo. We decide to down bet to 1/4 pot but mess up the quick math and bet $45. V clicks it back to $100. We have a ton of JJ+ here that is scared of the Ace and the dealer V knows this. I'm a tight player in general so this dealer has likely never seen Hero 3 bet bluff a hand like this. Here is where we may go off the rails a bit. I'm putting V on a strong Ace here like AJ+ that didn't 3 bet. Since we are fairly deep Hero decides to 3 bet the flop to set up a turn jam. If we were in position I would just call and allow V to keep betting. Anyway we make it $300 to go. We are repping a very thin range of sets and maybe AK so we are ok with polarizing. If we take it down we may have lost some value but if we get called we can jam pretty much every turn card. Probably too ambitious but I also like it because it looks bluffy on a dry board. V tanks then calls.

Turn ($850): Ac8d4s 7c
We tank a bit and then jam $850. V asks for a count, tanks for several minutes. Counts it off. Makes the call.

Did I overplay the flop here or is this a fine aggressive line? I just didn't want to flat the flop raise then the turn goes x/x and river goes bet / call. If we do flat flop and V bets turn we have to raise then right? Otherwise river is even more likely x/x. It felt like the best way to get stacks in was to 3 bet flop in the moment. But maybe I'm being too greedy.

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Well mate, very long explanation, hard to read.
Your Squeeze preflop is fine, but I don't know how many players got into it.
Why Villain should be folding hands like A8, 88 and 44 OTF? The only hands that you are very fine here are AA and..maybe 88, 44 I guess you would not Squeeze preflop.
Try to describe the order of the hand (preflop, flop, turn and river) and then you put your ideas, otherwise it becomes very hard to comprehend your hand and line thought process.
Well, I also don't get the rationale behind 4-betting OTF, for the basic reason that you allow Villain to play close to godlike perfection, leaving all the trashes and second hands and draws and paying only that hands that have us beat.
Yes, it is only one combo of 88 but it is possible. This flop is very dry considering these dynamic ranges and calling the 3-bet OTF is also a good option to protect our stealing 3-bet ranges.
After you 4-bet OTF there aren't too many options but to jam OTT. I would call OTF because I don't have a lot of bluffs on this flop, plus the fact it doesn't even have flush draws on it.
OTT, if it opens a flush draw it is better to be jamming, because now there are more chances of being paid by AQ, AJ, AT, etc.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Thanks for your more concise reply.

Aballinamion said:

Well mate, very long explanation, hard to read.

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LOL, well played. This did have a lot of text. I thought it was important to include the thought process to follow the action but maybe I over did it a bit.

Aballinamion said:

Your Squeeze preflop is fine, but I don't know how many players got into it.

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From the OP:
"Only button V calls."

Aballinamion said:

Why Villain should be folding hands like A8, 88 and 44 OTF? The only hands that you are very fine here are AA and..maybe 88, 44 I guess you would not Squeeze preflop.
Try to describe the order of the hand (preflop, flop, turn and river) and then you put your ideas, otherwise it becomes very hard to comprehend your hand and line thought process.

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I did not say V should fold those hands on the flop I said they should fold those hands pre flop after we 3 bet to 105. V could defend 88 here but I didn't think it was very likely.
From OP:
"V should be folding A8, 88, and 44 here pre"
I did describe the order of the hand. I gave all relevant Vs positions pre flop, Hero's position, and action. Not sure what is missing or confusing. Here is OP with all the fluff cut out but nothing added:
"opens $15 from HJ. CO calls. BU flats. SB flats. Hero A4hh in BB 3 bet to $105'

Flop (~$250 after rake): Ac8d4s
We bet to $45. V clicks it back to $100. Hero 3 bet $300. V tanks then calls.

Turn ($850): Ac8d4s 7c
We jam $850. V makes the call."

Aballinamion said:

Well, I also don't get the rationale behind 4-betting OTF, for the basic reason that you allow Villain to play close to godlike perfection, leaving all the trashes and second hands and draws and paying only that hands that have us beat.
Yes, it is only one combo of 88 but it is possible. This flop is very dry considering these dynamic ranges and calling the 3-bet OTF is also a good option to protect our stealing 3-bet ranges.
After you 4-bet OTF there aren't too many options but to jam OTT. I would call OTF because I don't have a lot of bluffs on this flop, plus the fact it doesn't even have flush draws on it.

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Rationale is given in-line. We 3 bet flop specifically to set up a turn jam. It also looks fishy to be this aggressive when our range should mostly be one pair on this flop. I'll add here that If he's weak he's checking back turn. If he's strong we will have to x/r turn to put stacks in play rather than x/r flop. Bet sizes will likely be larger and our hand could look stronger. We are OOP so it is harder to realize equity or build a pot. We have to raise somewhere when we are this strong. Why not flop? Had I not made the mistake with the flop sizing this probably would not have been necessary and we could have just planned to go three streets.

Also it's not a 4 bet. It's a 3 bet. Hero bets 45, V raises (2-bet) to 100. Hero 3 bets to 300. I agree we can play the turn as a bet / call. But there are some advantages to playing this hand fast this deep as we see by results. Also there could be bad runouts where we have to give up or x/c.

Aballinamion said:

OTT, if it opens a flush draw it is better to be jamming, because now there are more chances of being paid by AQ, AJ, AT, etc.

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Suits are listed, so a flush draw is opened on the turn as you can see. And I suspect this helped us get called by AQ+.