$50 NLHE 6-max: JJ in 3b pot gets c/r

PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

CO: $104.15
Hero (BTN): $50.00
SB: $56.65
BB: $12.45
UTG: $51.95
MP: $53.10

SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero has J:club: J:spade:

fold, MP raises to $1.50, fold, Hero raises to $4.50, fold, fold, MP calls $3.00

Flop: ($9.75, 2 players) 7:diamond: 2:spade: 4:club:
MP checks, Hero bets $6.00, MP raises to $16.65, Hero ???


okay so this guy is basically unknown, but he is platinum star so its fairly safe to assume he isnt going to be a passive fish or w/e..

What kind of ranges do we give him here, and whats the best play against these ranges, because of the board texture im really not very sure what to put him on.

I think folding is good, I don't think he is bluffing with this sizing and doubt he'd play 99-TT here like this.

so you put him on solely 2s 4s and 7s?

more likely QQ+

I think you have to add some air some times ex A2-A5 and 88-QQ some times along with sets.

he doesnt 4b Qs+ :S

This looks like BS to me. I don't play 50NL, however this flop totally misses your 3betting range. It's a great board to c/r imo and he knows that.

jbbb said:

This looks like BS to me. I don't play 50NL, however this flop totally misses your 3betting range. It's a great board to c/r imo and he knows that.

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If you believe that what do you do?Call and let him bluff?Shove? What if you call and a A comes on the turn?

It really depends what level he thinks im on liek most people at 50 (regs at least) know that this "looks like" a good board to c/r

JOEBOB69 said:

If you believe that what do you do?Call and let him bluff?Shove? What if you call and a A comes on the turn?

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Well I was thinking about this. It's hard to exploit even if we think he's c/r light. Calling is pretty bad because there is literally no good turn cards, are we just gonna call him down and hope he didnt improve? Raising will fold out all his bluffs and leave him with a crushing range. Folding leaves us exploitable. So I don't know what to do, I was just saying I think he's FOS

imwatcher said:

It really depends what level he thinks im on liek most people at 50 (regs at least) know that this "looks like" a good board to c/r

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I can't remember the video, however on DC there is a great video about 3bet pots. It has graphs for different board textures and 3betting ranges and says how often they hit a flop and because of this how often they are likely to fold to a raise . . . or something similar. 3bet pots are played so passively in micro's (mainly because 3betting ranges are pretty strong), however playing aggressively is better due to the pot size and the amount of times players miss a flop like this.

If this were the second or third time he's done this I like shoving over (calling down with KK+) but this spot totally sucks, as jbbb notes all turns suck ass so we have to basically commit on the flop.

baudib1 said:

If this were the second or third time he's done this I like shoving over (calling down with KK+) but this spot totally sucks, as jbbb notes all turns suck ass so we have to basically commit on the flop.

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Is the consensus to fold and wait for better reads? Maybe a make a note like "c/r flop after calling 3b pre (1/1). I s'pose we can't just assume every unknown is wanting to c/r with air lol

I shove

I think its a fold, i dont think supernovas are gonna be the trickiest of regs and i want more info before i stack. I doubt he's stacking 88 here like ever if he's at all good?

platinum... so what range do you put him on? just sets?

This is a pretty standard flat preflop without history. What range do you expect a reg to continue with utg+1 vs a btn 3bet?

I have seen alot of people showdown with KQ, AJ, even scs and lower pps in these situations

imwatcher said:

platinum... so what range do you put him on? just sets?

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He could have some but calling 3bets oop with small pp's is probably bad here so more likely things like QQ+, a few bluffs too id suspect but still, i think shoving here is gonna get you into trouble against unknowns far more often than it doesn't. I'd rather commit to calling it down in position than shove.

ChuckTs said:

This is a pretty standard flat preflop without history. What range do you expect a reg to continue with utg+1 vs a btn 3bet?

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Do you 3bet in SB due to being OOP post flop? I can see the merit in calling on the button

acky100 said:

He could have some but calling 3bets oop with small pp's is probably bad here so more likely things like QQ+, a few bluffs too id suspect but still, i think shoving here is gonna get you into trouble against unknowns far more often than it doesn't. I'd rather commit to calling it down in position than shove.

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I am pretty sure 4betting Qs+ is going to be standard

imwatcher said:

I am pretty sure 4betting Qs+ is going to be standard

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I think he can flat KK or AA here a lot to c/r on the flop. I've seen (and done) it before and it seems to generate a lot more value than 4betting which makes it hard for you to continue with ~70% of your 3bet range.

imwatcher said:

I have seen alot of people showdown with KQ, AJ, even scs and lower pps in these situations

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As a standard? Or you`ve seen a few times in the last few thousand hands (ie from someone who I`d say is likely not in like the bottom %25 of players given his vip status).

My point is if you 3bet for clear value preflop, then post you should know what you`re doing on a low board with an overpair.

If you had QQ here, I assume you`d never fold. The fact that you have JJ shouldn`t change much - if you 3bet it pf for value, it should be at the same `point`in your range relatively speaking. If his range is big pf for calling a 3bet, then postflop you have to assume his postflop range will open up significantly too.

As played I cant fold, but I expect lots of JJ+, and again have to again lend credence to the fact that pf is the root of your postflop problems.

Sure seems like he'd be likely to 4-bet preflop with AA or KK, meaning his range is large pairs from 77 to QQ. You're behind QQ and 77 and ahead of 88, 99, and 10 10 (JJ is unlikely). Slight percentage of the time he shows up here with 44, 22, KK, or AA, as well as air. (Although even his air -- like AK -- has 6 outs plus backdoor draw(s).) The math is probably pretty break even here; shove if you can take the variance, fold if not. No way you can simply call here.

ChuckTs said:

As a standard? Or you`ve seen a few times in the last few thousand hands (ie from someone who I`d say is likely not in like the bottom %25 of players given his vip status).

My point is if you 3bet for clear value preflop, then post you should know what you`re doing on a low board with an overpair.

If you had QQ here, I assume you`d never fold. The fact that you have JJ shouldn`t change much - if you 3bet it pf for value, it should be at the same `point`in your range relatively speaking. If his range is big pf for calling a 3bet, then postflop you have to assume his postflop range will open up significantly too.

As played I cant fold, but I expect lots of JJ+, and again have to again lend credence to the fact that pf is the root of your postflop problems.

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I dont see many people flatting with Qs+ to a 3b oop thats for sure so im not sure why so many people are putting him on this?... and no I wouldnt never fold here with Qs it would be the same thought as this.. also i dont understand why this is a trickier spot with Js here than Qs just because I really dont see people flatting a 3b oop with Qs+ ESPECIALLY if they are against an unknown.

Flatting KK+ is totally normal even standard here for me vs. a BTN 3-bet.

Do I think people show up with random air here sometimes? Sure do. But I don't think they show up with random air or worse value hands often enough when it's an unknown volume grinder facing an unknown.