$200 NLHE Full Ring: $200 NLHE : Live speculative hand Blind vs Blind

mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Big blind seems pretty reggy just judging by appearance and demeanor, but not sure if good reg or bad reg. It was first orbit at table, so no info otherwise.

I have :6d4: :4d4: with $98 in the small blind

3 limpers, I complete in the SB, BB raises to $12, 2 of the limpers call and one folds. I call.

Flop is :10d4: :10c4: :6s4: with $50 in the pot
I check. BB bets $12. Both other players fold. I call.

Turn :6h4: with $74 in the pot
I check. BB bets $20. I call.

River is :5c4: with $114 in the pot
I donk bet all in for $54. Bb ...... *no spoilers*
 
Jillychemung

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This really isn't a BvB hand since it started out MW. Is max buy-in in this game $100? Maybe it's a "Guess what the villain had" type of HA so I'll play along.

BB snap calls with :qh4: :10h4:
 
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AlexTheOwl

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It's $1/$2?

Sometimes players at this level do strange things, but at the river his range should be AT and TT (9 combos) and overpairs (24 combos).

I can't find a fold against a random player at any point here.

On the river, villain is going to bet if he has a T, and I think you have to call given the pot odds. By betting maybe you can get a call from an overpair that would have checked behind.

WP I think.
 
nucl

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Was the blinds 1$/2$?
If so then you shouldn't call his pre raise to 3 limpers even you were priced in with this kind of hand because of your stack.
The call on the flop seems reasonable of your backdoor diamond, but opponent indicates with that kind of play a medium to a big pair in his range.
So even I don't like the preflop call I like your play post.
Hope he called with something like 88,99,JJ+ and won the pot.
 
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AlexTheOwl

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Was the blinds 1$/2$?
If so then you shouldn't call his pre raise to 3 limpers even you were priced in with this kind of hand because of your stack.

Why? Hero wouldn't have the correct implied odds if this was heads-up, but this was four way action, hero's call completed the action pre-flop, and at this level many players will commit too many chips with weak hands post-flop.
 
mbrenneman0

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This really isn't a BvB hand since it started out MW. Is max buy-in in this game $100? Maybe it's a "Guess what the villain had" type of HA so I'll play along.

BB snap calls with :qh4: :10h4:

well, i mean, im in the blind and the villain is in the blind, so technically.... its just not a blind steal situation

i baught in for $100 because I just wanted to play a $35 tournament that looked like it wasnt going to run and I figured id play a few hands while I was waiting to find out if the tournament would run and i didnt want to risk a whole buy in to play casually.

and no, this is not a guess-what-he-had post, this is a did I play the hand correctly and we're my assumptions about his range correct? I left a lot of my thought process out because I didnt want to bias the reviews. unfortunately it seems theres already a bias that people who post hands for review post them because they lost, which statistically is probably pretty prevalent

It's $1/$2?

Sometimes players at this level do strange things, but at the river his range should be AT and TT (9 combos) and overpairs (24 combos).

I can't find a fold against a random player at any point here.

On the river, villain is going to bet if he has a T, and I think you have to call given the pot odds. By betting maybe you can get a call from an overpair that would have checked behind.

WP I think.

do you suppose the range you gave him on the river is just what he calls with? or is that his entire range after he bets the turn?
EDIT: missed the part where you said overpairs haha... I told him after the hand, I figured he had a pocket pair, so yeah I agree


I figured he only bets the river with 10x and checks back everything else in his range, so the donk lead gets value from all the hands he checks back with. I also think he calls a wider range against a call OTT and donk OTR than he would call a check-raise OTT with


Was the blinds 1$/2$?
If so then you shouldn't call his pre raise to 3 limpers even you were priced in with this kind of hand because of your stack.
The call on the flop seems reasonable of your backdoor diamond, but opponent indicates with that kind of play a medium to a big pair in his range.
So even I don't like the preflop call I like your play post.
Hope he called with something like 88,99,JJ+ and won the pot.

yes, it's 1/2

and no, im getting 4:1 with a hand that likely has about 30% against his range. If i get to realize my equity 70% of the time, which I should, then i dont need any implied odds to make this a good call
 
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bkniefel

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Oh my gosh I was reading and super into it then.. bam! *no spoilers* I'm guessing pocket 5's only because you want us to guess and it was something that was obviously important to you so yeah, he had 55.
 
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AlexTheOwl

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do you suppose his range on the river is just what he calls with? or is that his entire range after he bets the turn?

I figured he only bets the river with 10x and checks back everything else in his range, so the donk lead gets value from all the hands he checks back with. I also think he calls a wider range against a call OTT and donk OTR than he would call a check-raise OTT with

I think that's his range after the turn. Throw in 5% of his range being nonsense like lower pairs, since this is the lowest stakes offered.

He certainly should only bet 10x on the river, but have a look at beanfacekilla's thread to see what people actually do at 1/2, even (bad or mediocre) regs.
I agree more river calls than turn check-raise calls.
 
mbrenneman0

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I think that's his range after the turn. Throw in 5% of his range being nonsense like lower pairs, since this is the lowest stakes offered.

He certainly should only bet 10x on the river, but have a look at beanfacekilla's thread to see what people actually do at 1/2, even (bad or mediocre) regs.
I agree more river calls than turn check-raise calls.

yeah people do some whacky stuff, i did figure he plays more straightforward since he just looked so much like a reg definitely wouldnt be surprised if he showed up with some AJ type of BS on the river sometimes lol

even if he does bet pocket pairs OTR, I wanted to be sure id get value from them
 
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Why are you limping preflop ? Just fold or try to steal by betting 3bb. Now you're playing oop with a weak hand and you're definetely not deep enough to play such a speculative hand. I usually would never play with less than 100bb anyway. When he raises too 12bb preflop just fold. You're hand plays so poor oop short stacked.
As played I would probably just call him down postflop. Donk betting all in is weird too. From what hands are you trying to get value from beside pocket pairs ? When he has a 10 you probably get stacked anyway. If he was bluffing you're giving him the chance to get away from his hand. He mainly has a T or Air on the river. Without any read on the opponent it's also pretty optimistic trying to get some value from Ace high. He might even fold a hand like 77 or 88.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Me personally, I fold pre. Don't even put the extra dollar in.....

However, as played, I just check/call flop, turn, and river. Leading river allows him to get away with worse, and we want to keep him thinking he can win here, so we just check. I don't expect him to have 10x here, so if you got paid off, you must have had a read.....

And plus if we jam, he snaps, and he shows us 10x, yeah that sucks. It seems like he could have 10x, but I don't think he does for some reason.
 
quick

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I would generally fold this hand pre-flop and in many cases not even complete the SB with it unless I'm pretty sure I can limp into a cheap flop and maybe hit a huge hand. Would not call the PFR with it.

As played it's possible villain has an overpair since he raised preflop. But it's also possible he has any combination of face card /10 (like A10 or J10)
 
mbrenneman0

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My memory of the hand is starting yo get a little fuzzy, but i didnt expect him to be bad laggy enough to bluff the river with worse than a pair or even double barrel with worse than AK or gutshot. I read him as being somewhat tight. Might not have known enough about him to make that read though.

As far as limping pre. 64s plays really well multiway, we probably have 20% in a 4 way pot, and getting 9:1 we have to be denied equity a lot to make this a bad limp IMO

Im not sure I like raising, id rather fold than raise because were going to go to the flop with a shallow SPR and id rather keep the SPR high for postflop play.

As far as my stack size goes im quite comfortable with a 50bb stack as a tournament player primarily.
 
mbrenneman0

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Why are you limping preflop ? Just fold or try to steal by betting 3bb. Now you're playing oop with a weak hand and you're definetely not deep enough to play such a speculative hand. I usually would never play with less than 100bb anyway. When he raises too 12bb preflop just fold. You're hand plays so poor oop short stacked.
As played I would probably just call him down postflop. Donk betting all in is weird too. From what hands are you trying to get value from beside pocket pairs ? When he has a 10 you probably get stacked anyway. If he was bluffing you're giving him the chance to get away from his hand. He mainly has a T or Air on the river. Without any read on the opponent it's also pretty optimistic trying to get some value from Ace high. He might even fold a hand like 77 or 88.

This is live, nobody in the world is folding to a 3bb raise in a live table. Even online 3bb raise size is awful

You can actually see by the fact that only one limper folded pre to the 6bb raise that not even 6bb is enough to steal.

And yes, trying to get value from pocket pairs exactly. Pocket pairs make up most of his range after his turn bet

And if hes bluffing 2 streets, which is honestly unlikely, he would have to be pretty spewy to bluff a 3rd street, and im not sure but i think if I check and he bets, then i might actually have to fold. Theres a problem when youre turning the 3rd effective nuts into a bluff catcher
 
Beanfacekilla

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The positional disadvantage of the SB outweighs the price pre IMVHO. I like raising better than limping though. But honestly, I just fold pre, especially with your stack size.


I do understand your logic though and I don't fault you for it either. Just my $0.02
 
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Papier24

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This is live, nobody in the world is folding to a 3bb raise in a live table. Even online 3bb raise size is awful

You can actually see by the fact that only one limper folded pre to the 6bb raise that not even 6bb is enough to steal.

And yes, trying to get value from pocket pairs exactly. Pocket pairs make up most of his range after his turn bet

And if hes bluffing 2 streets, which is honestly unlikely, he would have to be pretty spewy to bluff a 3rd street, and im not sure but i think if I check and he bets, then i might actually have to fold. Theres a problem when youre turning the 3rd effective nuts into a bluff catcher
Oh sorry, I misread your opening post. I thought everybody else folded before you preflop. So yes with 3 limpers it is totally fine to limp I guess.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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I think i would like raising pre better if I had a full 100bb stack.

I do see where your coming from though. Things can be awkward out of position on a 489r board with 46s but i think we still realize our equity enough with that price
 
mbrenneman0

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Oh sorry, I misread your opening post. I thought everybody else folded before you preflop. So yes with 3 limpers it is totally fine to limp I guess.

No worries, i misread hand histories all the time haha xD
 
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AlexTheOwl

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Me personally, I fold pre. Don't even put the extra dollar in.....

I would generally fold this hand pre-flop and in many cases not even complete the SB with it unless I'm pretty sure I can limp into a cheap flop and maybe hit a huge hand.

You are leaving money on the table if you are not willing to invest half a blind in cash game with a suited one-gapper when there are three limpers in front of you and one player left to act. You have more than enough equity, implied odds are high, and it's an easy fold on the flop if you don't have a draw.

I also hate the idea of raising into 3 limpers and the BB with this marginal hand. Speculative hands love to see flops cheaply with multi-way action.
Small and medium raises get called, and the hero will usually be behind and OOP on the flop in a big pot.
Large raises risk too much to win too little.

Calling the PFR is marginal. There is $97 in his stack, and it's $10 to call, so it's basically 10% of his stack to call.

The five / ten rule applies here:
http://cardsharp.org/the-510-rule/

or Flynn / Mehta / Miller's idea of the "commitment threshold":
http://t0ughbeats.blogspot.com/2007/09/rem-commitment-thresholds-and-stack-to_17.html

I think the multi-way pot provides good enough pot odds and implied odds even with this stack size, especially at this level where many players have trouble folding top pair. But it's debatable.
 
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I think an overpair checks back that river so jamming is nice.
We can't always just assume he has the ten, there are other hands in his range.
 
Beanfacekilla

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You are leaving money on the table if you are not willing to invest half a blind in cash game with a suited one-gapper when there are three limpers in front of you and one player left to act. You have more than enough equity, implied odds are high, and it's an easy fold on the flop if you don't have a draw.

I also hate the idea of raising into 3 limpers and the BB with this marginal hand. Speculative hands love to see flops cheaply with multi-way action.
Small and medium raises get called, and the hero will usually be behind and OOP on the flop in a big pot.
Large raises risk too much to win too little.

Calling the PFR is marginal. There is $97 in his stack, and it's $10 to call, so it's basically 10% of his stack to call.

The five / ten rule applies here:
http://cardsharp.org/the-510-rule/

or Flynn / Mehta / Miller's idea of the "commitment threshold":
http://t0ughbeats.blogspot.com/2007/09/rem-commitment-thresholds-and-stack-to_17.html

I think the multi-way pot provides good enough pot odds and implied odds even with this stack size, especially at this level where many players have trouble folding top pair. But it's debatable.


This is the precisely the reason we don't limp the extra dollar. BB raises, 2 calls, now we are priced in, and call.

Investing 10% of stack here, and I live by the 10/20/30 rule. 30x IO to call pre, and we are OOP, and it's really tough to get paid off if we hit, because we are OOP.

We see a flop in the worst position possible, and it's 10-10-6.

Now, we can check call this flop here, and dude may be bluffing. But, what cards do we like on the turn besides sixes? And will we even get paid off with 6's full? What if he shuts down, and doesn't pay off? And what if he has a 10, and he is betting small to get people to put money in with hands like 6-4? And then he just shows us 10x and we lose?

So, all turns are terrible except sixes, so what do we do when a 9, J, Q, K, A, 8, 7 comes on the turn? So board reads something like 10-10-6-Q, and V bets again.... let's say he bets $40?

Then what do we do?

We have a super weak hand, that is vulnerable to way more than half of turn cards, and this is precisely why we just fold pre. To avoid the tough spots we are going to get into most of the time.

If hero had $500, and V has $500, then things are different.

I would like it much better if H was OTB or had position. We could raise the suspicious flop bet, possibly win the hand with aggression, and we can control the pot size much better.



I personally feel that position is often underestimated. It's very tough to play good cards OOP, let alone a super duper spec hand like this.



We aren't leaving money on the table by folding. We are keeping it in our stack most of the time. I really don't agree with that statement. What in the world are we going to flop playing 6-4s OOP, that we not only make a super hand, and we actually get paid as well? 3-5-7ddd? 6-6-6? 6-6-4? And we have $85 left over in this dream scenario. It's just not enough money to make the call pre worth it to me. Need to be much much deeper.
 
mbrenneman0

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idk about that, i dont think we fold to a barrel on a J 9 8 or 7 turn, I think we are way over-folding if we fold on all those turns, id definitely fold to a barrel on an A K or Q turn... but how often does he fire a turn barrel on T T 6 J with AK or AQ? always right? AK/AQ make up a significant portion of his turn barreling range on a texture like that and there are a lot of turns that we can check raise the turn as a semi-bluff


here's a snapshot of how 64s flops, and im continuing at least one street on the checked textures to most bet sizings, I think thats the most balanced approach:
d10758f8e68ed4e28934c17cf51012dd.png


EDIT: sorry, that flop continuing range is assuming the limpers fold and its back to me and the BB headsup... I would continue with a tighter range if it was going to go to the turn multiway, but then im also getting implied odds to continue with that tighter range. dropping the gutshots and some bottom pairs (depending on the texture) from my range multiway which brings my continuing percentage down to 40% multiway
 
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This is the precisely the reason we don't limp the extra dollar. BB raises, 2 calls, now we are priced in, and call.

You aren't willing to invest half a BB here because the BB might raise?
Usually he doesn't raise. When he does, you can fold, having lost very little. You are not really "priced in", it's a borderline call or fold.

You write as though being priced in is a bad thing. It never is. Being priced in only means you can't fold because your equity and implied odds are better than your pot odds. I wish my equity and implied odds were better than my pot odds at every stage of every hand I played.

I don't think it's reasonable to fold before the raise. As mbrenn says, you are getting 9:1. We have so much more equity than we need. If your four remaining opponents (3 limpers and the BB) have AA, KK, QQ, and AK then you have 21% equity.

We aren't leaving money on the table by folding. We are keeping it in our stack most of the time. I really don't agree with that statement. What in the world are we going to flop playing 6-4s OOP, that we not only make a super hand, and we actually get paid as well? 3-5-7ddd? 6-6-6? 6-6-4? And we have $85 left over in this dream scenario. It's just not enough money to make the call pre worth it to me. Need to be much much deeper.

We are not counting on having a strong made hand on the flop. Getting in cheaply (relative to pot size) and having a straight or flush draw on the flop is a good result.

Most of the time we fold. Most of the time that we do have a draw, it doesn't complete. Most of the time we lose money. When we win, we need to win big.

Our stack is not deep, but having this many opponents increases the chances that someone will pay us off. It also increases the chances that there will be a bet and at least one call on the flop, which in turn increases the chances that we will have the right pot odds to call a draw on the flop - which is a good thing.

But I don't think folding or calling the Pre-flop raise is a major mistake. It's a borderline case.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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and yeah, BB's raise sizing pre was terrible... if he put in a proper raise to 16 to 20 or so, we would not be priced in, and we can just fold. easy peezy
 
Mase31683

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Completing the blind for $1 is meh, it'd be way better if you were fully stacked. But even then, you basically need to flop a miracle AND extract OOP so have fun with that. I get it, and I like putting the .5bb in here too, but realize this spot probably isn't nearly as profitable as you think it is.

Then BB raises and you definitely need to fold. You have a hand that's gonna flop some super weak pair, or a weird kind of "looks okay but is still really hard to play" draw, AND we're sitting on just 48bb. We just put 12.5% of our stack in hoping for that outcome that isn't really a good spot to be in.

Then, not so surprisingly, we flop a weak hand that's going to be tricky to play. Are we ahead of AK? Are we dead to Tx? Does villain have 77+? I don't know...

Turn bails us out and puts us ahead of everything except his Tx holdings. Without reads it's hard to say, but considering it's his bb, I don't think a lot of T's are in his range. Expecting more pp's, AT is in there but I think other 10's usually check the option and take a flop.

Your range definitely has way more 6's and T's in it. I think donk jam is fine. If villain is thinking player he should find a fold, but by the same token I don't see what he could possibly bet. He should be checking virtually his whole range behind, so I'm good with jamming it in at that point
 
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