$2 NLHE Full Ring: Top Set on 3heart flop multi-way

This hand is not mine, its one from another forum I wanted to share, I had a discussion with a member on another forum he thought the x/r was fine and I thought it was kind of bad because it would make villains fold all weaker hands and continue with hands that ave good equity versus us do you think x/r is best or check/call is best, I know pre-flop raise should have been done but what would you do on this flop ? Thank you. I also thought Lead may have been ok but I don't like the x/r personally, its a small pot why not just play for a decent pot with decent equity versus wide ranges instead of blasting the pot and having them fold out all worse and call with over-pairs with a heart, NFD with a pair or already made flushes right? what hands without good equity will call this x/r . we are also OOP.

NL Holdem $0.05(BB)
HJ ($5.5) [VPIP: 31.7% | PFR: 19.5% | AGG: 25% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 41]
CO ($6.13) [VPIP: 22.4% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 12% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 59]
BTN ($5) [VPIP: 40% | PFR: 26.7% | AGG: 31.3% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 32]
SB ($4.73) [VPIP: 7.5% | PFR: 2.5% | AGG: 33.3% | 3-Bet: 5% | Hands: 40]
HERO ($7.67) [VPIP: 25% | PFR: 15% | AGG: 27.9% | 3-Bet: 8.6% | Hands: 20283]
UTG ($5.19) [VPIP: 24.4% | PFR: 17.8% | AGG: 28.6% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 46]
EP ($8.96) [VPIP: 15.5% | PFR: 12.1% | AGG: 43.8% | 3-Bet: 4.2% | Hands: 59]
MP ($4.38) [VPIP: 9.7% | PFR: 6.5% | AGG: 12.5% | 3-Bet: 5.9% | Hands: 31]

Dealt to Hero: T T

UTG Folds, EP Raises To $0.20, MP Calls $0.20, HJ Folds, CO Folds, BTN Folds, SB Folds, HERO Calls $0.15

Hero SPR on Flop: [6.74 effective]
Flop ($0.62): 5 T 8
HERO Checks, EP Bets $0.30 (Rem. Stack: 8.46), MP Calls $0.30 (Rem. Stack: 3.88), HERO Raises To $1.50 (Rem. Stack: 5.97), EP Folds, MP Folds

Later I checked that the UTG+1 player folded and UTG+2 folded .
Did I raise too large and lose value from big over pairs? Don't think calling is the right play as it allows people to see a heart come on the turn for cheap.
Thoughts?
Also, for arguments sake, If one of the players came over the top we would be calling it off with top set right??

Actually these hud frequencies are not significant, since the sample of hands played for the villains is very scarce.
In this particular hand, and considering that the stake is nl2, it would I make cbet of half pot on the flop and pot bet on the turn, assuming no other heart street comes. Another defensive line that I'can could be applied in the flop would be check / call and donk-pot bet or 3/4 of boat on the turn, if the fourth heart street is not completed.
Greetings.

Ummmmm....if they both folded, you shouldn't be able to know what their hands were. How did that happen??

apparently on the site they guy was on it was allowed or something idk.. but is this a x/r on flop or what do you guys think

Sidetracked said:

Ummmmm....if they both folded, you shouldn't be able to know what their hands were. How did that happen??

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For some sites they reveal hole cards after 24 hours or some period of time so you can go back and check for study. I was shocked when I first heard about this as well.

As for the hand I think this line is fine. I probably size down to 4x with top set but the result is likely the same. I'm also probably getting it in if they come over the top since we don't have enough hand history to justify a fold. An alternate line would be to donk lead this hand for 3/4 pot prob call any raise and jam non heart turns or continue to barrel if unraised.

In a 3 way single raised pot this board is much too wet to simply x/c to try to extract extra value. The only turn card that gets us any action that we action want here is a 5. We are also OOP and they are both likely to x back brick turns. So the end result is we give them both two free cards and hope no Ace or heart hits so we can lead river and possibly get the same two folds. If the AA had one heart we get all the value we can handle. Sometimes the board texture and action is such that we are forced to bet, we just hope they are strong enough to continue without having us beat but lets not give them free-ish cards to catch up. If an Ace or heart hits the turn our plans or our stack (or maybe both) are toast. A 6, 7, or 9 aren't great turn cards either.

Obviously preflop was bad, causing an awkward flop. I think this is one of the rare situations where a good argument can be made for any action expect folding. Generally I just bet any time I don't see a big advantage to another action. It gives people the option of raising so I can choose if the money goes in. In this type of spot I think you get action from enough draws, and odds of improvement to get it in. Some over pairs or smaller sets will come along too.

GWU73 said:

Obviously preflop was bad, causing an awkward flop. I think this is one of the rare situations where a good argument can be made for any action expect folding. Generally I just bet any time I don't see a big advantage to another action. It gives people the option of raising so I can choose if the money goes in. In this type of spot I think you get action from enough draws, and odds of improvement to get it in. Some over pairs or smaller sets will come along too.

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What's so bad about pre flop? You think TT is a 100% 3 bet from UTG+1 open and a call? I think flatting is fine here some, if not most, of the time. In this case we lose the hand if we 3 bet and get 4 bet. Also if we just get called and dont hit a T it can be tough to navigate OOP in a larger pot. If the raise came from MP or CO or later then yea, I think we have to 3 bet more.

c0rnBr34d said:

What's so bad about pre flop? You think TT is a 100% 3 bet from UTG+1 open and a call? I think flatting is fine here some, if not most, of the time. In this case we lose the hand if we 3 bet and get 4 bet. Also if we just get called and dont hit a T it can be tough to navigate OOP in a larger pot. If the raise came from MP or CO or later then yea, I think we have to 3 bet more.

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Apparently these boys don't have much sensitivity to bet sizes. Generally 10x can be interpreted as an obvious regular exploitation. Notwithstanding that, I prefer to avoid calling, when in the middle there is a calling position. I don't obey these low-volume frequencies, which superficially denote a possible tight player profile.
I prefer to do 3-bet preflop, to compensate for my position in nl2. (We are quite deep, so the size I would choose would be around 2.5x). I'm honestly not sure if I would fold a 4-bet, being with 383 bb (in nl2). I think I could call, if the investment is not greater than 1/4 of my stack, since we are looking for a suitable spr, for the next flop. But above that size I agree make a fold a 4-bet while OP.

gustav197poker said:

Apparently these boys don't have much sensitivity to bet sizes. Generally 10x can be interpreted as an obvious regular exploitation. Notwithstanding that, I prefer to avoid calling, when in the middle there is a calling position. I don't obey these low-volume frequencies, which superficially denote a possible tight player profile.
I prefer to do 3-bet preflop, to compensate for my position in nl2. (We are quite deep, so the size I would choose would be around 2.5x). I'm honestly not sure if I would fold a 4-bet, being with 383 bb (in nl2). I think I could call, if the investment is not greater than 1/4 of my stack, since we are looking for a suitable spr, for the next flop. But above that size I agree make a fold a 4-bet while OP.

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Interesting point. The title says $2 NL but the post says:
NL Holdem $0.05(BB)
So I assumed it was a 4x open. Still in general, since we don't have good reads I would rather play a smaller pot out of position. I don't think TT does that well against an EP open range when playing OOP and calling 4 bets will make it even tougher. Even if we flop an over pair we are not sure where we are at. I still don't think 3 betting here is bad. I just think flatting is better.

c0rnBr34d said:

Interesting point. The title says $2 NL but the post says:
NL Holdem $0.05(BB)
So I assumed it was a 4x open. Still in general, since we don't have good reads I would rather play a smaller pot out of position. I don't think TT does that well against an EP open range when playing OOP and calling 4 bets will make it even tougher. Even if we flop an over pair we are not sure where we are at. I still don't think 3 betting here is bad. I just think flatting is better.

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Forget my comment. This is nl5. Mistake of my.

This looks fine as played to me, I could also be convinced to lead to flop as it causes some people to spaz out

I think, its one of those spots, where people can argue a lot, but in reality check-calling and check-raising are probably so close in EV, that it does not really matter. Its easy to get results oriented and say, check-calling would have been better, because these two hands were way behind, and they folded.

But as soon as someone has a heart, check-raising has a lot of merit, because we want to charge them or protect our hand. If for instance MP had 6c6h rather than 6c5c, then making him fold is a completely fine result. As someone said already, the check-raise was very large though, so perhaps a slightly small size like 1,2$ could be considered.

Finally I dont know, how much more value we could have gotten here regardless. Maybe there is one more bet to be had against EP, if the runout is clean with no 1-liners to either a flush or straight, but MP surely dont put in another dime with bottom pair, after we overcall the flop. Its a little crazy, that EP straight out bet-folded AA on the flop, but that's how nits play. Make a note on it and look for spots to bluff this guy in the future.

c0rnBr34d said:

What's so bad about pre flop? You think TT is a 100% 3 bet from UTG+1 open and a call? I think flatting is fine here some, if not most, of the time. In this case we lose the hand if we 3 bet and get 4 bet. Also if we just get called and dont hit a T it can be tough to navigate OOP in a larger pot. If the raise came from MP or CO or later then yea, I think we have to 3 bet more.

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You are correct. I mentally transposed the 25%vpip with openers. I apologize for the statement. That said, I still like just leading out.

fundiver199 said:

I think, its one of those spots, where people can argue a lot, but in reality check-calling and check-raising are probably so close in EV, that it does not really matter. Its easy to get results oriented and say, check-calling would have been better, because these two hands were way behind, and they folded.

But as soon as someone has a heart, check-raising has a lot of merit, because we want to charge them or protect our hand. If for instance MP had 6c6h rather than 6c5c, then making him fold is a completely fine result. As someone said already, the check-raise was very large though, so perhaps a slightly small size like 1,2$ could be considered.

Finally I dont know, how much more value we could have gotten here regardless. Maybe there is one more bet to be had against EP, if the runout is clean with no 1-liners to either a flush or straight, but MP surely dont put in another dime with bottom pair, after we overcall the flop. Its a little crazy, that EP straight out bet-folded AA on the flop, but that's how nits play. Make a note on it and look for spots to bluff this guy in the future.

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You think the AA bet / fold line is overly nitty? I really don't mind it facing this action. He bet 1/2 pot in a 3 way pot and got called and then x/r huge 5x and he's not closing the action. The AA is actually slightly behind hands like JhTs. Are you calling another bet on non heart turns?


ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
990 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 5♥T♥8♥
AcAd 48.38% (479 wins, 0 ties)
JhTs 51.62% (511 wins, 0 ties)

fundiver199 said:

I think, its one of those spots, where people can argue a lot, but in reality check-calling and check-raising are probably so close in EV, that it does not really matter. Its easy to get results oriented and say, check-calling would have been better, because these two hands were way behind, and they folded.

But as soon as someone has a heart, check-raising has a lot of merit, because we want to charge them or protect our hand. If for instance MP had 6c6h rather than 6c5c, then making him fold is a completely fine result. As someone said already, the check-raise was very large though, so perhaps a slightly small size like 1,2$ could be considered.

Finally I dont know, how much more value we could have gotten here regardless. Maybe there is one more bet to be had against EP, if the runout is clean with no 1-liners to either a flush or straight, but MP surely dont put in another dime with bottom pair, after we overcall the flop. Its a little crazy, that EP straight out bet-folded AA on the flop, but that's how nits play. Make a note on it and look for spots to bluff this guy in the future.

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Im not being result orientated by thinking Check/ call is the best play, its a well know thing in poker when you check call you keep your opponents ranges wide. If we get it in versus a flush we have 34% Equity, 55,88 are small portion of his range 6 total combos even those might make a lay-down. Villain could shove with over-pairs that have a heart but what about all the rest of their ranges including the weaker ones we want value from? The pot is small on the flop because hero didn't raise pre-flop which I think he should have, so we are on the flop with a decently small sized pot OOP,why blast the pot when we can lose to any heart on the turn ? we can play it in a way that extracts good value from all worse hands and also gets away cheaply if the board gets ugly on the turn or river. We also still have cards to improve to a full-house if someone has or gets a flush when we check/call.We have top set but our hand strength is not that great on this board I prefer a defensive line for the flop here.