[10nl FR] Standard KK on A flop

Villain is unknown

EverestPoker Game #3931901272: Table Riga-21 - $.05/$.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:57:48 - 2008/11/15
Seat 1: Tigidoo ($2.63)
Seat 2: marieanne ($4.29)
Seat 4: entYy ($9.75)
Seat 5: superdam ($12.75)
Seat 6: popo222 ($7.15)
Seat 7: funikuli ($1.90)
Seat 8: gonnzales ($5.78)
Seat 9: Nutpaupoker ($9.90)
Seat 10: Kendralee87 ($8.76)
popo222 posts the small blind of $0.05
funikuli posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to entYy [Kc Ks]
gonnzales raises to $0.45
Nutpaupoker folds
Tigidoo folds
marieanne folds
entYy raises to $1.50
superdam folds
popo222 folds
funikuli folds
gonnzales calls $1.05
*** FLOP *** [9c Jh As]
gonnzales bets $4.28, and is all-in
entYy ???

Is this a standard fold ? When is it ok to call this ? Are we just relying on a read then, but what if we have no read vs unknown ?

Not really much to analyze here but I still wanted to know

Against an unknown with no reads, this is a fold.

yep its mucktastic.. he just would way to often have Ak aq god even like a6 suited with no read

3-bet to $2.

c9h13no3 said:

3-bet to $2.

Click to expand...

eh, given stacks, smaller is fine imo. it's not like we have to facilitate getting it in. if villain hits any piece, the money is going in. the real disaster would be letting him off the hook preflop, and i'd say $2 is significantly scarier

and yes i fold now

combuboom said:

eh, given stacks, smaller is fine imo. it's not like we have to facilitate getting it in. if villain hits any piece, the money is going in. the real disaster would be letting him off the hook preflop, and i'd say $2 is significantly scarier

and yes i fold now

Click to expand...

I don't see how this guy is ever folding, after he raises to 4.5xBB UTG. Given his shortness, shoving preflop can't really be that bad, as I bet we're getting called by TT+, AK.

So you're saying I should try and get him all in pre given ?

I'm not sure cause he's an unknown but if he's anything like the others he's either flatting that $2 or folding. I think betting $2 gives him a chance to fold AK type hands, this way I get him in on flop and he's only got 3 outs to beat me. I just think this time he hit one of them 3..

Ofcourse barring he has AA

The ace is too scary. I'm folding here.

Ok, maybe he does have an ace, but if you were the pre-flop agressor, why is he donk bet/shoving into you with a pair of aces. If he has a pair of aces why not check/shove after your c-bet. Not sure he has an ace here, and if he doesn't then I am really not sure why he is shoving. As played, I guess I fold, but after thinking about it, I would probably call.

eagle jim said:

Ok, maybe he does have an ace, but if you were the pre-flop agressor, why is he donk bet/shoving into you with a pair of aces. If he has a pair of aces why not check/shove after your c-bet. Not sure he has an ace here, and if he doesn't then I am really not sure why he is shoving. As played, I guess I fold, but after thinking about it, I would probably call.

Click to expand...

I didn't say he had aces. I said he hit that Ace in my opinion .
If it's a bluff, ie he got no Ace, it's a really stupid one because he has no way of knowing I don't have a big ace. And since he's an unknown we can't give him credit for stupid bluffs yet

I think preflop is fine given stacks - the smallish 3b lets us get away more easily in situations like the way the hand played out and I don't think we lose much - if villain has any sort of a hand we're either getting it in preflop or on any non-ace flop with just over 50BB effective stacks anyway. I don't really see what advantages a larger 3b gives us here.

Ok now I see......fixed my game with one post, I think all players are stupid until proven otherwise, while most winning players think they are smart until proven different. Maybe I can win a dollar or two now.

But yeah I know you didn't say he had an ace , just that you think he did......dang this game is too much work . Still if he had and ace and now has two post flop, why not give you a chance to c-bet the flop and then shove? Inquiring minds want to know.:icon_scra

A $10NL unknown is generally thinking "I have good cards - I bet", "I have a draw - I call" or "I have nothing - I fold" (or maybe "I have nothing - I call", heh). I think you're overthinking things here.

Yeah if we were villain and we had a strong hand we would probably CRAI here given stacks because we would be giving our opponents good odds on a call (assuming a ~3/4 pot c-bet) and forcing calls with hands like KK and QQ and perhaps worse while not losing value from many worse Ax hands that are getting it in anyway with shallow stacks.

But we're not villain - villain is a $10NL unknown and without specific reads we revert to default - that is that villain is more likely to be thinking "ME HAS GOOT HAND ME BET" than anything to do with fold equity, pot odds and maximising value.

Don't get me wrong, there is a chance this is a bluff as there always is when faced with a big bet, but it's not nearly likely enough to justify calling an overbet here.

Dorkus Malorkus said:

I don't really see what advantages a larger 3b gives us here.

Click to expand...

More $ in the pot while we're holding the second nuts was my thinking...

So why not just shove pre then? Where do we draw the line? (you're not allowed to come back with "why not min 3bet?" btw )

I don't think your average $10NL player ever folds pre to a 3*3b having raised UTG, but the larger raise may fold some hands out given villain's stack and the fact that (whether he's consciously aware of it or not) he is far closer to committing his stack calling a $2 3b. I guess this is where we disagree - you think he's never folding to a $2 3b and obviosuly if he isn't we should 3b a little more, but I don't think this is the case.

Obviously given 100bb+ stacks we should 3b larger because we lose a lot of potential value on later streets by not doing so, but here I think it can be a little counter-intuitive as it's going to be a lot easier to get villain to stack with 50bb stacks whatever we do pf - and keeping him in the pot pf should take priority over swelling the pot, second nuts or no second nuts.

In all honesty we're probably debating gaining or losing 0.1bb in value or something though.

Fold that sucker, unlucky beat most likely.

I agree with DM.
If he doesn't have AA, I'd much rather keep him in the pot and suffer the consequences than 3betting bigger and risking a fold.

Also agree that given his half stack we're most likely getting it in postflop either way. Unless of course it's some donk holecards and he suddenly sees the light to fold.

Dorkus Malorkus said:

I guess this is where we disagree - you think he's never folding to a $2 3b and obviosuly if he isn't we should 3b a little more, but I don't think this is the case.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's my point. Your average unknown at microstakes games hates folding, they want to see flops. So charge 'em the max. I don't think shoving is all that bad, but I think he may call a 2$ 3-bet a bit more often. And I've seen plenty of shorties call raises for half their stack with stuff like 66, and then fold the flop when they don't hit a set. That have no clue about set odds, committed, ect. They just want to see flops & try to make something.

If he has AK/KQ/JK/whatever the hell donks raise with, we're not getting squat out of him postflop the vast majority of the time (unless they do one of those call with AK unpaired type things).

c9h13no3 said:

YAnd I've seen plenty of shorties call raises for half their stack with stuff like 66, and then fold the flop when they don't hit a set. That have no clue about set odds, committed, ect. They just want to see flops & try to make something.

Click to expand...

You were obviously there when I got stacked on low rainbow flop today.
I had KK reraised to $2.2 making him call $1.9 just so he could hit his set with 88 .

PREFLOP: Yeah. Either shove your 3-bet (or bet $5.78 to be a smartass) to get the short stack to make a decision for all his chips OR keep the 3-bet somewhat standard size like you did to entice him to call with Ax & miss and to make it easier to bail if the Ace does flop. Making a bigger 3-bet would just make his postflop stack smaller and the pot too big for either of you to pass up.

FLOP: Let him have your $1.50 and pick a better spot. It's too likely he has an Ace. And as a consolation, he could change his style later after increasing his stack giving you a chance to win it back by outplaying him.