Using "tools" to help with poker

A recent thread made me wonder how everyone feels about using "tools" while playing poker. I can see using a program like PokerTracker after you've played, since it would be virtually the same as hand writing the action for review later. Or, as some people do, using a voice recorder for later review. What I'm wondering about is if you think it should be acceptable to use tools during play? I'm not really talking about a true "cheat" system where you can see someone's hole cards live or online, but more the "aids" that can show you stats during the game. Another CC member posted that you should use any tool which gives you an edge... but should you really?

You are at a major disadvantage if you don't use PT/Pahud while playing.

As for the odds calculators and programs that tell you if you should call or not, I think they are pretty useless but see no problem with them.

My feeling is that using PAHUD or other such tools while playing is a huge crutch. I don't mind someone analyzing their play afterwards with the data that they've collected, but I don't know, I think the HUD's are a bit unfair. But meh, it's not a HUGE issue to me. Just my thoughts on the subject.

I think professional baseball players should be allowed to pump steroids, use bionic arms and loaded or metal bats. Hell, any edge they can get, right? </sarcasm>

obv bastard, but i think using some tools are ok , but its def a contraversial subject....

Emperor IX said:

I think professional baseball players should be allowed to pump steroids, use bionic arms and loaded or metal bats. Hell, any edge they can get, right? </sarcasm>

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your analogy is flawed DUCY?

Dorkus Malorkus said:

your analogy is flawed DUCY?

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Would it be more correct if the batter could see the outfielder's stats hovering over their head to see where to aim for? Or, %'s over the pitcher as to where he throws it most?

His analogy is showing how the batter would have an edge over the rest of the batters, just as a HUD gives an edge over those who don't have it. Sure, anyone can get it, but when you're talking about micro stakes tables, more than likely, those players would not be able to justify spending $50+ on any aids.

If your not smart enough to play without a hud then your not smart to plat with a hud.

See here and here.

Dorkus Malorkus said:

protip: live poker =/= online poker.

seriously, the sooner people stop treating them as exactly the same, the better.

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I dont have a problem with it. The software is available to anyone who wants to use it, and it is perfectly within legality on most sites, so as long as your playing by the rules I dont see a problem. If you dont decide to use software, then you should be aware that you may be at a slight disadvantage against people that do, so you might wanna buy the software or go to a site that doesnt allow it. There is some software out there that is shady imo, pokeredge being 1, which is actually banned at most of the major sites now, but is still being used on those sites, since they designed their software to bypass security measures. All the players that have a subscription feed all the data that they collect to the main server which destributes all the info/stats to thier customers, including recent hand histories and money won/lost.

Emperor IX said:

I think professional baseball players should be allowed to pump steroids, use bionic arms and loaded or metal bats. Hell, any edge they can get, right? </sarcasm>

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There are definitely arguments for both sides but really with all due respect is this the best analogy you could come up with against software use?

K_Kahne_Fan said:

Would it be more correct if the batter could see the outfielder's stats hovering over their head to see where to aim for? Or, %'s over the pitcher as to where he throws it most?

His analogy is showing how the batter would have an edge over the rest of the batters, just as a HUD gives an edge over those who don't have it. Sure, anyone can get it, but when you're talking about micro stakes tables, more than likely, those players would not be able to justify spending $50+ on any aids.

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umm ok, let me clarify why it's a horrible analogy.

steroids, corked bats etc = against the rules of baseball, action will be taken against the culprit (if they're caught).

huds = allowed by 99% of poker sites.

edit: also what AG said!

Obviously, no one in their right mind should use the odds calculator as if you can't do this yourself then really you should take up snap.

The second category of tools that tell you what people have done at your table - again I'd like to think that i am already monitoring people that well. Who is betting too much, what looks like a c-bet, who bets in late position, etc. I don't really need a tool to tell me if someone's a rock or fish. I used one of these for a few hands and found I was looking more at the tool than the table - that is so bad.

If the tool includes historic info then that might be useful. But then again people playing different limits, cash, SNGs,MTTs, short handed or full table, low BR or High BR coming out as one number - well that's an interesting number.

Can I use these. I'm not sure. If I have A4o and the it's the first hand and the sb is a major fish who goes all-in well I am still folding. Guess the thing is if you keep seeing bets and no showdowns then may be, just may be it might be useful. But it strikes me as the sort of thing that bites you in the bum, and just something else to blame when you make the wrong call.

PS - forgot - sort of relevant - if I play in a tourney for a while then the next day I go over my hands in large pots, really looking for my own leeks but sometimes you do notice the idiot moves by others and sometimes it's worth recording them using notes especially if you are going to be playing the same guy again, e.g. if she/he/it is a cardschat regular. Got a lot of notes on mad brazilians now!

mmmmmmmmmm cake

In order to keep things fair I think that the poker sites should place an icon over the person's avatar for everyone using any extra software. This way you could vary your play to the point of rendering the "edge " useless.

My opinion is that people who use the software will become lazy and base most if not all of their decisions on what the software recommends, thus removing the human element and becoming quite predictable.

I'll stick to the few brain cells I have left...

cake .....cake ....cake yum

I know it's not a great analogy but it doesn't need to be. The point is that poker is a game that should be played by humans, not by humans with the aid of datamining programs.

Emperor IX said:

I think professional baseball players should be allowed to pump steroids, use bionic arms and loaded or metal bats. Hell, any edge they can get, right?

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That is a great idea, but you forgot gene doping. About time someone had the courage to suggest something that might actually make baseball interesting to watch, instead of incredibly tediously boring. /no_sarcasm

AlexeiVronsky said:

That is a great idea, but you forgot gene doping. About time someone had the courage to suggest something that might actually make baseball interesting to watch, instead of incredibly tediously boring. /no_sarcasm

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umm let's stay on topic, this isn't the "which sport is the most exciting" thread.

Emperor IX said:

I know it's not a great analogy but it doesn't need to be. The point is that poker is a game that should be played by humans, not by humans with the aid of datamining programs.

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Live poker. You're about to join a game with people you've never played before, but your buddy has, and he knows all the reads on all the players and their tendencies. Do you not take his advice/information?

or

You're going to play the same live game tomorrow night, but you have a chance to watch them tonight to pick up some reads/tells etc. Do you not go and take a peek at the game for some information in advance?

If not, then what's the difference between the two situations above and a datamining program that makes you think that doing the former two are right and the latter is wrong?

I dont like them. Its hard to pay attention to the game when using them. Odds calculators are just useless.

I don't really care if people use tools WHILE playing poker or not. Tools like the one your probably referring to actually help me make money.

I simply hope they SOON realize that the tools are no substitute for their brain. If you don't have a brain for poker you really won't last long online or live. Tools are mostly used improperly and because of that give misleading results. Even if you use the tool properly (to get a feel of the odds better in your head overtime or some crap) its still misleading.

Quick little example: How many times have you seen (on TV) someone with a 80% next to their hand enter a showdown with someone who has 20% next to theirs, and all of a sudden the percentages do a 180 and the person who had 80% now has 0%-20% and the person formally with 20% now has 80%-100%?

Most of the time, both players in those situations have good/great hands (unless theres a bluff). Though there is a 5%-10% chance, or whatever it may be, that both players have great hands, they still both have the great hands. How does a program and/or odds calculator help? Not in just this, but any situation? How does a tool help you in a more USEFUL (knowing exact percentages are USELESS) way than your brain can't?

Now, you might think that this situation is due to a lucky draw, and sure, your probably right. But guess what, thats POKER baby! How it goes down sometimes. A program can't help you, only cripple you in more ways than one (decision making, reliance, misleading results, etc) and the list goes on forever.

So, I don't feel its illegal or wrong to use programs, but the brain gets my vote!

I'm in favor of the brain as well (hell it's my favorite organ, ok 2nd favorite). It's just that when I'm playing on 4 tables my brain fails miserably to remember exactly how many times this guy has raised since he sat down at the table an hour ago. I seem to remember that he's been in a lot of pots but I think he might have usually been limping. Damn faulty brain, guess I'll stick to using Poker Tracker and a HUD.

BTW, I love this: live poker =/= online poker

I use Poker Tracker. I dont really need to probably, but as WV said: when you are multi-tabling it is alot harder to remember exactly who did what 15 hands ago. I am not a fan of the bot types of programs (whether they actually click the button or they merely tell you what to do and you click the button). But PT/HUD are fine imo. Also most calculators just add up the outs, etc. So there really is no reason to be afraid if someone is using them. Usually they are just lazy people that dont want to take the time to add it up in their head. The only software that anyone should have a problem with, are the ones that tell the person what decision to make. Even then, they base decisions on straight pot odds, so that is easy enough to take advantage of too.