Limping/Calling

Hello, does anyone know how many players have to limp in preflop in order for you to call with any hand in late position?

-Kenny

5 and a half.

Honest answer - depends. Are you in BB or can you get raised? Has your hand got any prospects of winning multiway pot? Will you be able to get away from hand if you hit flop, but there's a lot of action indicating you've not got best hand?

It's experience and trial and error I suppose, but there's no point calling with trash just because of huge pot odds.

Ok lets say you're playing a table that almost never raises pre. So you can pretty much call without worrying about aggression. So with that, how many players have to come in for my 72off to be the right call.

-Kenny

KH2 said:

Ok lets say you're playing a table that almost never raises pre. So you can pretty much call without worrying about aggression. So with that, how many players have to come in for my 72off to be the right call.

-Kenny

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First bit - just because they've never raised before doesn't mean they never will.

Re 7,2 off, what flop do you want to make you continue? The obvious 777 and 222 would be once in a lifetime miracles, 77, 22, 72 are highly unlikely (at least nowhere near the 6,7,8/1 you are getting), and a 10, 7 ,3 flop helps you, but either isn't in front or is unlikely to remain in front. Just fold - this isn't a difficult one.

If I am on the button, or next to the button, I will call almost anything with 5 players in, in a tourny and low blinds. This is assuming there have been no raises.

KH2 said:

Ok lets say you're playing a table that almost never raises pre. So you can pretty much call without worrying about aggression. So with that, how many players have to come in for my 72off to be the right call.

-Kenny

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Kenny,

Some hands go up in value with many opponents, because of the increased implied odds they get if they hit. I'm guessing this is why you're asking at what point even 72o gets profitable.

These hands are connectors and suited cards, preferably both ("suited connectors"). 72o is neither suited nor connected. 72o, therefore is a hand that does better against few opponents - but as soon as you reach the fewest opponents (1), you will not get sufficient odds to play, as you're getting 1-to-1 on your money (and your hand most certainly won't have a higher expectation than his).

There might be some people who could find some very rare situations where they will be able to make a profit from calling with 72o - but I'm not one of them, and (no offense) since you had to ask about it, I doubt that you are either.

There are no absolutes in poker, but two axioms that are about as close as you can get:

* Never pay to see a flop with 72o.
* Never fold AA preflop.

Incidentally, I think folding AA preflop is something I'll do many more times in my career than paying to see a flop with 72o*. That ought to say something, too.

* Edit: Well, no, not really. But I want to stress really really much that 72o is not okay to play except in some extreme circumstances. Fold it.

Depends on what your holding. If you have a marginal hand in late position and more than two limp in, I say raise. There is that fear that the small and big blind might have something better and call or reraise you. But, as the saying goes, no guts, no glory. If you have a garbage hand (i.e. 2,7 3,9 2,6 4,10 etc.), don't raise. Hell! don't even limp in.

t1riel said:

Depends on what your holding. If you have a marginal hand in late position and more than two limp in, I say raise. There is that fear that the small and big blind might have something better and call or reraise you. But, as the saying goes, no guts, no glory. If you have a garbage hand (i.e. 2,7 3,9 2,6 4,10 etc.), don't raise. Hell! don't even limp in.

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Why not go all in? LOL! If you've got a hand that isn't very powerful, but works well in multiway pots, then the last thing you want to do is thin the field. Also, if you raise, you're running the risk of being re-raised (and having to throw away).

Great answers although no one has answered my question yet. How many players should be in before you can call with a not so great hand. I didn't mean just 72 I ment any not so great hand. K8off for example. How many players make that call correct? I can't see folding K8 if there are 8 other players that limped in front of you? Obviously you need to know the odds of hitting 2 pair on the flop etc.

-Kenny

KH2 said:

Great answers although no one has answered my question yet. How many players should be in before you can call with a not so great hand. I didn't mean just 72 I ment any not so great hand. K8off for example. How many players make that call correct? I can't see folding K8 if there are 8 other players that limped in front of you? Obviously you need to know the odds of hitting 2 pair on the flop etc.

-Kenny

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Well why don't you list all the possible starting hands and all the possible seating positions and i'll spend a couple of months working it out for you, OK? I did answer your question - IT DEPENDS.

Kenny, I suggest you check out this article--Pre-Flop Mistakes found in our Articles section. (There's also a Part II to that article.) I think you'll find it very useful.

ooook mr. Bob, didn't mean to make you tilt on here. You can go to another question please.

Its easy, 7 people limp in before the flop, and you are on the button. Do you fold something like Q9off? I see it all the time on tv. Mike Sexton is always saying something like, he's geting 4 to 1 on his money so he calls.

-Kenny

What's the price of the blind? At 0.20 I would probably call something like a K8o or Q9o if everybody else limped in. At even as little as 0.50 or more I'd say no way. Bad poker practice, I know, but I'm the curious type who loves to see the flop in those cheap-as-chips games. I know I'm not necessarily getting pot odds but hey, 0.20 is only 0.20!

PS I wouldn't touch 72o with a barge pole.

I agree with Tammy check read and re-read in articles on this subject and others,lot of good info. I use them all quite often if I don't understand I'll how it works best I ask.

It is your money KH2, put some of it at risk and learn from the results. There are so many variables that there is no right answer.

I don't think some of the people who responded really understand the question. My answer is that 2 7 is not ever gonna be worth calling, even if you know that 9 people will call and definately not raise. Even 9 to 1 on your money isnt good enough to call with 2 7 offsuit. On the other hand, if you are small blind and sure that 9 other people WILL call (theoretically), it would probably be worth calling. You're getting 18 to 1 on your money, and thats enough of a chance of hitting a winning hand to stay in (like trips or 2 pair).

just my opinion

Fully agree Crippler, unless of course you treat the 7,2 like AA's and do a pre-flop raise with. Along with a continuation bet and treat the 7,2 like they are pocket AA's. Not saying to do this, yes mix up your hands. A bluff like that now and then would definatly surprise your opponents.

Alright, let's see if I can tackle this question a bit better than just saying "don't do it."

First, allow me to rephrase your question to what I believe you actually mean: What's the worst possible starting hand that can still be played profitably given optimum conditions?

To answer that, I'll revert back to my answer above: Suited connectors gain in value against many opponents, and non suited-connectors like shorthanded pots. I think it's easier, then, if we separate the two:

Suited connectors
Given optimum conditions - a full table where everyone limps in and I know there will be no raise - I will play 32s. I won't flop a straight or a flush very often, but when I do, the pot will make up for small bets I pay to get there. Especially if I get the nut straight; whoever is holding an ace will pay me off dearly. So when it comes to suited connectors, I could go all the way down.

Non-suited non-connectors
A non-suited, non-connector wants to play heads-up, for largest chance to win. So, to fabricate a heads-up situation where you haven't already gotten a discount in the form of a blind, let's say that you're on the button in a limit hold'em tournament, the small blind is in the bathroom, and you know that the big blind never raises preflop, and never folds preflop. These conditions are important, because we're looking for the optimum: If he could fold preflop, you should play weaker hands yet for a raise, because you have some steal equity. If he could raise preflop, you should tighten up, because you don't want your marginal hands to have to pay two bets to see the flop.

What's the worst hand you should play here? The hand that's in the 51st percentile - the hand that figures to be just better than his average hand. I'm not sure exactly where this line goes, but I'll guess it's somewhere around J8o.

Given that both of these scenarios are hypothetical and not actually applicable to just about any decision you'll ever actually make, I feel compelled to add this: Why do you ask?

"I don't think some of the people who responded really understand the question. My answer is that 2 7 is not ever gonna be worth calling, even if you know that 9 people will call and definately not raise. Even 9 to 1 on your money isnt good enough to call with 2 7 offsuit. On the other hand, if you are small blind and sure that 9 other people WILL call (theoretically), it would probably be worth calling. You're getting 18 to 1 on your money, and thats enough of a chance of hitting a winning hand to stay in (like trips or 2 pair)."

wont it have to happen like 18 times for it to be profitable?

No, it will have to happen once in 18 times. If you want to perform experiments, you're looking for situations where the equity of 72o is > 5.5%.

F Paulsson said:

No, it will have to happen once in 18 times. If you want to perform experiments, you're looking for situations where the equity of 72o is > 5.5%.

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I'm setting you a one day challenge Freddy - try to get through the rest of the day without typing the word "Equity". You never used to, and if does sound a tiddly bit pretentious

:reddy: The word "pretentious" sounds pretentious!

The last few threads I've been involved in have dealed almost exclusively with it, though, and I just last night updated my Custom User Title to reflect it.