Level of play in casinos compared to online?

This question is more for UK based players who play online and in local casinos, but I guess it applies worldwide.

I know some guys and girls who really have no clue about poker..besides what the winning hand values are. They win a home game and dont seem to bat an eyelid at the prospect of buying into a £10-30 SNG in a live casino.

Meanwhile many of us are grinding up (using strict BRM) by winning at micro level and learning the ins and outs of the game through thousands of hands, forums, videos, books etc.

Are alot of casino players super soft with very little knowledge and playing at stakes well above their poker level?

Dont get me wrong there are alot of donks online but it seems at casinos you have soft players playing at much higher stakes. It seems they dont consider long term profits and consider the buy in as a night out.

I think the biggest reason is people want to play in a casino, but they don't have any stakes low enough for their level so they have to play above their head. On the other hand people could be alot more comfortable playing live rather than online. I know I for one am like that I have no problem playing in a casino for $40-$150 buyin tournament or playing $1/$2 cash but I'm not comfortable playng online any where near those stakes.

You will find a decent mix at most casinos, in the U.S., anyway - not too sure about the U.K. I play mostly live (or have until recently) and I would say that the level of competition at an easy 1-2 NL live is similar to a 25 NL online. A tough 1-2 live would be similar to 50NL - 100NL online. On a full ring table (on average) look to find 1-2 pro-level players, 2-4 decent players, the rest pretty easy to beat, casual players. Be careful though, I have come across very tough live 1/2 tables where there were 5-6 pro-level players....the easiest way to get around that is to ask for a table change, lol.

I've only played in the Czech Republic so far, bit the competition seemed rather soft, especially in tournaments.

Concerning cashgame, on each fullring (1-2 NL) table there were 4-5 players who were just not patient enough and got their money in with top pair, without paying any attention to the board or the preflop action. I think that the reason is (besides that they are bad players...) that they are used to the faster online play and just get bored. Maybe the free drinks help a littlle bit, too!

In tournaments with lower buy-in (around €50), I encountered many players who hadn't any clue of the game at all. I think those are the gamblers, who won some money at black jack and want to try something new.

So in my opinion, there are many soft players, even more than online. And they seem as they wouldn't care about money!

My general rule for comparing casino play to online play is to convert the dollars into cents: $1-$2 ($200NL) in a casino plays like 1c-2c ($2NL) online.

Tournaments are maybe a little different, a $100 casino tournament probably plays like a $10 one online.

Obviously things vary from place to place, but that's been my experience to date and it's matched up pretty well with stories I've heard from other players around the world.

I have been able to beat up to 10nl online and am not rolled for 25nl, but live I was able to kill $1-$2. The players were simply terrible.

Whereabouts are you based in the UK? I've played a fair bit in a cardroom in Waterlooville near Portsmouth, £0.50/£1, and £1/£1 at a few different Grosvenor Casinos. In both cases, the games generally are loose and passive. I generally end up nitting pretty hard on full tables live if I'm playing seriously, you can pick people off, a lot of people are drinking, and generally not that observant. Within a couple of orbits you will get a good idea of who the fish are and who the sharks are.

There's a lot of low stakes action where I'm from, and there's a couple of really good players (one out and out pro) that go down to London a lot, a hive of poor play, a lot of city men (heh and everyone hates the bankers as it is) that stroll down to the casinos after a hard days work and happily piss away a couple hundred quid on a regular basis, one of the lads from my way practically lives at the Empire playing £1/£2, and from what I hear it contributes a major part of his income.

I'm not properly rolled nor do I have the time to go to London regularly, but I am heading down to the Int. Club this Saturday while I'm still on hols and in early feb I'm treating myself to a big low stakes tourney they're putting on as it falls on the day after my first major deadline of term

Grossberger said:

I think the biggest reason is people want to play in a casino, but they don't have any stakes low enough for their level so they have to play above their head. On the other hand people could be alot more comfortable playing live rather than online. I know I for one am like that I have no problem playing in a casino for $40-$150 buyin tournament or playing $1/$2 cash but I'm not comfortable playng online any where near those stakes.

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$1/$2 NL Live is the equivalent to .10/.25c online (skill wise).... or so that's what I read

I would make the observation that the two games are not even really the same.

Consider the differences when you change two rules of holdem. Deal each player four cards, and force each player to use 2, and only two, of his own cards. Otherwise play the game the same way. Anyone who has played much Omaha knows the game is entirely different.

Well there are two subtle but very meaningful changes between live and computer based NLHE.

1. You cannot see or interact very meanigufully with your opponent.
2. You can easily play 10x more hands an hour.

Even though the actual game doesn't change in the way it's played these two factors change the nature of the game enough in my opinion to really separate it into it's own category.

The lack of physical information makes a difference, and the ability to play so many hands allows online players to discipline themselves to play a more mathematically perfect game without being tempted by suicide.

Consider how many ultra gifted live players do when they transition to ionline holdem. Most of them tank badly. This is not, IMO only because of a skill difference.

To answer the question, in my experience $1 or $2 live holdem plays like <10nl online.

if they arent frequent players they may not follow any brm

if you go once in a month to a casino you buy in like you pay for an enternaiment, so the stakes may be higher

and about the level of play, usually in real casinos people with less level go for higher stakes than they do in online poker

thats my thought from argentina

cAPSLOCK said:

Well there are two subtle but very meaningful changes between live and computer based NLHE.

1. You cannot see or interact very meanigufully with your opponent.
2. You can easily play 10x more hands an hour.

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Interesting points and they're certainly valid. I'd say the most important difference between online and live casino play is this though:

Online you're playing against poker players. At a live casino, you're often playing against gamblers.

People go to casinos to gamble and poker is just another casino game to them. They're used to taking the worst of it against the house (if they're even aware of the fact - many aren't) and they have all sorts of funny ideas about things. Some of them think roulette is beatable using some clever system or other, for example. In a live casino there's nothing stopping these people just walking up to a poker table because they feel like a change from whatever else they've been playing, and not much changes in their attitude when they do. So they're willing to bet and bet big on all sorts of stuff. Hell, many of them will have mentally written off the money they've brought to the table before they even sit down.

Online, however, before someone can play they need to sign up to a site and somehow get their money onto it. This means there are a lot less casual players and straight gamblers because everybody's made the conscious decision that they want to play some online poker.

End result: there's a lot more LAGs, maniacs and droolers in live casino games. That's why the games play so bad, but it's also why they're so high variance. Open-raising to $20 is practially unheard of in online $200NL. In a casino $200NL game it can be standard.

OzExorcist said:

End result: there's a lot more LAGs, maniacs and droolers in live casino games. That's why the games play so bad, but it's also why they're so high variance. Open-raising to $20 is practially unheard of in online $200NL. In a casino $200NL game it can be standard.

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Just OzExorcists last point, at many casino games you can expect the 'standard 3bb raise' to be thrown out of the window, and if you want to isolate the pot at all with a good hand, your gonna be wanting to open with a bigger raise. ofc this depends on the game, and you'll pick up how the game is going, but it's certainly something you should consider before sitting down.

Oh, and live rebuy tournaments... don't get me started!! If you've ever played in the daily dollar rebuy... think of it like that, but even more trigger happy pre flop . In my experience Freezeouts tend to play a lot more solid with respect to cash play and rebuys. As said a lot of people who play live have a lot more 'gamble', for this reason many cash games play a little like tournaments, whilst there will be more passive players, others will be happy to ship it in early compared to online, you really tend o get the polar opposites of what you find online at a casino game.



Edit: Just incase you are not aware of it (sorry if you are, but I know a lot of online players that go and play live and have never heard of it) you will find a lot of 'straddling' going on in the cash games, where the player utg has the option to post a third blind before the cards are dealt, sometimes there is an agreement with the players at the table for everyone to do it to encourage action, I choose not to do it at tables with a decent number of players, if the table is shorthanded and I feel I have a significant skill edge, I will be happy to straddle and sacrifice position. By straddling you are the last person to act preflop and be free to act as you please - seperating it from a blind raise. In some cases you will get a restraddle, some places will only allow utg+1 to restraddle, I've played in a game full of degens where it's nearly gotten all the way round to the original straddler!

OzExorcist said:

Interesting points and they're certainly valid. I'd

Online you're playing against poker players. At a live casino, you're often playing against gamblers.

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LMAO....what??? First off, let's get something straight, REAL poker is played live, with a dealer and a deck of cards. I know that may hard for some of you to believe, but poker IS A CARD GAME. Nothing against internet players, but I feel the complete opposite of what you said is true. Online, you're playing a very sophisticated computer/math game, live you are playing poker.

Now, are there gamblers at a casinos? Of course there are but even the craziest gambler at a casino is rarely as bad as some of the insane donks you have at the micros. (I'm talking about the U.S., I'm not sure about Australia)

It varies from casino to casino but in the two major cities in the U.S. - Vegas & AC, the level of play is better than .01/.02, much better, trust me. An average full ring table is closest to 25 NL online and some maybe harder than 200 NL online, it all depends on the casino, location, time of day/week, etc.

Now you say that casino poker is wild b/c you will find 10x bb raises pre-flop. Well, if you find yourself on one of those tables, beware, it could be the classic, live pro hustle. What many pros will do is when 2 or 3 know each other, they'll sit down at a 1/2 table and turn it into a 2/5. Happens all the time.

They sit down at a 1/2, start playing normally, within 20 or 30 minutes though, you'll see them start to increase the pre-flop raise amount gradually until it averages around $12-$15 (essentially a 2/5)...and all the fish at the table don't even know what is happening. Next thing you know, everyone at the table is raising $12 - $15.

Now they do this for 2 primary reasons, the first is because there is always fresh meat at a 1/2 table, pros don't like playing against other pros - why would they? So they're going to search out the easiest competition.
The second is why pay 2/5 blinds, plus additional rake if you can get the same amount of action at a 1/2??

So next time, don't be so quick to assume when you're at a 1/2 table that is rasing 12 bb pre-flop it's b/c you're surrounded by fish, which may be true.. take a closer look and you may find a few sharks in the mix.

The responses seem to confirm what I thought.

Many at the poker table in casinos are casual players with no BRM and just write off the fairly large buy in as fun/night out.

Recently I have stuck to SNGs and some MTT so I have only have a small sample size in cash games online at $0.01/0.02 bb. But the play wasnt much different to my one time visit to a casino playing £1/£2 bb. I had a big pocket pair AA and made a raise, a guy then re-raised me near enough all in with 77 lol. Easy shove and double up. I didnt expect such a poor play at those stakes..but now I know.

I have played in a 1/2 live game in the middle of a weekday before where I might have been one of the 2 or 3 worst players. I was well over my head and I knew it right from the start. There were a few guys with shades and poker shirts, and I felt like I was at the wsop FT. I would say that game was playing WELL above micro online stakes.
So it varies, but usually there are some pretty bad players in low stake casinos. My favorite is when some fish loses a pot and says "yeah I couldn't fold I had an Ace" lol Makes me feel good inside.

Kasanova King said:

So next time, don't be so quick to assume when you're at a 1/2 table that is rasing 12 bb pre-flop it's b/c you're surrounded by fish, which may be true.. take a closer look and you may find a few sharks in the mix.

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I won't, and I don't. But usually it's because they're crazy gamblers / drunk / stupid whatever.

Plus while there's undoubtedly some games like the ones you describe where the majority of players are solid, you've gotta admit there are a lot more like the ones I and others have described. And if you find yourself in one of the games you're talking about, why in hell would you want to stay in it?

Lastly, don't think for a second that I'm knocking live poker. I learned to play live, I deal live games for a job and I play live regularly. I'm just telling it like it is, both in my experience and the experience of many others that I've discussed the issue with from around the world.

I don't play a lot of micros online so I couldn't tell you what 1/2 NL compares to online, but it is generally soft - the reason is online you get a lot of people with different limits, so you only occaisonally get the donk at the 1/2 NL online or the underrolled person.

At a Casino, they're all tourists who've never heard of bankroll Management, or taken the time to learn about pot odds and outs. And of course, the people who do know about these things, who are of course there to gobble up the fishies.

OzExorcist said:

usually it's because they're crazy gamblers / drunk / stupid whatever.

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What Kasanova said is 100% right. The regs know the other regs and seldom play against other regs unless there's two monsters at play. It's so much easier to snatch a $300 buy in off a tourist in one hand. Hell last night I watched a guy call me down with ace high to the river and even then called my 1/2 pot value bet on the river when I flopped the nut full house, he called with ACE HIGH!

I'd much rather play against live tourists that I can easily identify opposed to online regs. Such as the 60k members here.

OzExorcist said:

I won't, and I don't. But usually it's because they're crazy gamblers / drunk / stupid whatever.

Plus while there's undoubtedly some games like the ones you describe where the majority of players are solid, you've gotta admit there are a lot more like the ones I and others have described. And if you find yourself in one of the games you're talking about, why in hell would you want to stay in it?

Lastly, don't think for a second that I'm knocking live poker. I learned to play live, I deal live games for a job and I play live regularly. I'm just telling it like it is, both in my experience and the experience of many others that I've discussed the issue with from around the world.

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It really depends on the day/time of the week. On a Friday, Saturday night, absolutely - a lot of the players will be sub par/drunk/donkish, etc. On a Wednesday afternoon around 1 pm, watch out, lol.

It also depends on the casino, of course. Typically, the bigger ones will have the biggest mix of sharks and fish. The smaller ones vary, depending on the poker room location, believe it or not. It's usually safe to say that if the poker room is in an open, visible area of the casino, expect a lot of tourists. If it's set apart from the main gambling area, 2nd floor, in a separate section, etc, then expect more solid, regular players.

I find it a lot easier to pick out the bad players in a live game, compared to online, live you can sometimes take one look at someone and your pretty sure they have no clue what they are doing..

online im constantly changing my mind about players, its a lot harder without the kind of info you get with a live game..

but overall i would say the lowerbuy ins and lower stakes the casino players are much worse than online. depending what site you play at you can have up to 4-6 regulars and just a few fish sitting at a table whereas the casino ive found less regulars play in a standard 9 max table..

Having lived & played live in 2 towns known for tourists (Vegas & San Diego), my experience has been that the majority of peeps are recreational players...depending on the time of day (as indicated by KasanovaKing). The ol' timers play during the weekdays & are more serious about their game but aren't necessarily playing for their livelihood. The peeps who play on the weekends are the ones who are using entertainment/vacation monies to fund their games so they're present for the have-fun factor...& the semi-pros & pros take advantage of that (as it should be ).

If I understand OzExorcist correctly, the [touristy] players in the casinos tend to have more gamble in them (not necessarily be more gamblers than online players) & imho much of that can be attributed to playing the style as shown on tv...ATC. Although I do know of a couple of regs @ the Wynn who play $2/$5 & will buy in for the max ($2K) & when they go broke @ the poker table they'll wander out to the floor to play blackjack to be able to fund another $2/$5 session.

As cAPSLOCK has pointed out, online & live poker have similar basics but the overall composition differs; for me, @ this point in time, I still view my live sessions as recreational (more social interaction going on) but I'm more serious about my micro-stakes online sessions (where I have more immediate resources available...this forum, videos, articles, etc...).

This is a really tough one cause one you can talk about different countries so like totally different type of players in the casinos just hard to give the right info pertaining to casinos near you. Also just as different casino locations there are different online sites with players with much different styles. I think the most important thing is just to play your game understand in it and choose a place you are comfortable playing (if both online and live good for you)and play at that place. Good luck to you and to all in your games!

I've found that 1/2, 1/3, and 2/3 live, play similar to 10NL and 25NL. I've found that 2/5 live plays similar to 50NL-200NL.

Every game is different but in general, I've found live play to resemble low stakes online play.

I believe Dan Harrington addresses this question in vol 2 of his Cash Games books..?

casino games tend to go quicker.. as aposed to waiting too long for lazy players online who take forever

I agree with most ppl here...i think they have to play above thier means because of the buy ins.I also think they ARE alot weaker players because of the lack of knowledge.I have seen people that shouldn't be anywhere near a live table but such is life.