I think I am getting worse at poker (long-ish)

So I started playing about 5 months ago and have really gotten into poker. An unfortunate personality trait of mine is that I cannot just do something recreationally. What I mean is that I have to be competitive at whatever I do, and I push myself until I am. Unfortunately things aren't going so well for me in poker and I am frustrated.

A little background.... I never played poker before this except for a charity event and on the x-box (to learn how to play said charity event). I am in my mid 20s with 2 degrees from a good college. I have played mostly 3-5 SNGs and .10NL hold-em.

The first couple of months I played SNGs mostly and moved up a bit too quickly and did not do very well. Recently I started playing cash because I did not like the slow play of SNGs (the wait for blinds to go up). At first I did relatively well and made 30 dollars into over a hundred. Every now and then I would crank up a $5 dollar SNG to play in the background and that seemed to work well for me. After ~1800 hands (new HDD in Dec, started over) my stats are 28/14/5.8 in .10NL

I purchased HOH I (read 2x now) and SNG strategy, then Gordons little green book. I am currently reading Harrington on Cash I and have the little blue book waiting behind that (on a side note, the little green book is my favorite so far).

My style was TAG and I tried to focus on position, but it was really slow going. So I started loosening up more and more and began playing a more LAG style. This has not gone well for me and my bankroll is pretty much depleted. I now find myself pushing a table around and slowly building my stack (making good plays) until I run into that hand that wipes it all away. I will have a good hand and know that it is beat, but for some reason refuse to lay it down. hand like 2-pair and straight when I just know the other guy has the flush or the full house. I see it, I know based on the betting that he has it, but for some reason at that moment I simply refuse to lay it down. What this tells me is that Im just not ready for LAG I guess.

One thing that throws a kink in it all is that over New Years my wife and I went to Vegas. I sat down for 5 1/2NL sessions (my first live table since playing seriously) ranging from 3-6 hours each. 4 out of 5 I won money, 3 of those 5 I more than doubled my stack while playing. The one losing session I lost my whole stack on about 3 plays after building a decent stack(1 a coin flip, one a suckout and the last a reckless bluff). How could I do so well there and come home and suck so badly?

So now I am sitting here nearly busted and trying to figure out how to start over. I will deposit, though I am really not happy with myself. I have lost about 200 dollars over 5 months. The money does not bother me, I have enjoyed the play, but the principle of it is really bothering me.

I will take a few days off, do some reading and studying of PT3 (only 1800 hands though) and come back to start over. I guess the point of the post is for some ideas on how to start over with a 100 dollar BR. Have any of you done this yourselves and if so what helped? If I am equally skilled (or unskilled) at cash and SNG what would you suggest?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

No matter how good you think you are and how much you win, online poker is rigged IMHO and you always end up losing.

I'd play for fun and if you win, great...but you've got to be really LUCKY to make longterm profit and yes a huge part of is luck.

Just my opinion.

i can only say that poker has lots of short term luck

it all equals out in the long run

First of all, the play online is tougher than live at a similar level. Drop down to the micros

Second, pick a game to start...cash, MTT or SNG. Get good at it (or at least decent.)

Third, know yourself. By that I mean your tendency to call when you "know" you're beaten. You need to get that under control because that's playing "hoping" poker. (I know...I used to do that, too.)

Fourth, congrats! You're already way ahead of the game because the first place you look for improvement is within yourself. Most people who lose whine about suckouts and bad beats....YOU'RE actually looking at what you may be doing wrong.

live poker easy, but internet those books are good 4 starting then i feel u have 2 refine your game 4 the internet style so don't go 100% on the books,ya lil green book gr8. low level sng just gotta play abc 2 win. 10c nl with pokertracker u can easily see what people are gona hand there money over with top pair aggressive make them pay 4 there draws. do not bluff 2 much

Sweetie,
First off you need to take a few days off to get away from it. Second, please understand that learning poker is a looooooong process. You will discover (as have I and many others) that more learn, the more you realize how much you DON'T know.

When Mike Sexton says, "Hold'em takes 5 min. to learn and a lifetime to master" he wasn't kidding.

I too have a library of books, I graduated with an engineering degree a few years ago, so studying 'till I'm blue in the face is nothing new. Some people pick-up the game of Poker and excell at it. (i.e. 21 year olds who are multi-millionaires) Unforntuately I was not one of them. In the two years or so of playing, the only way I improve is to grind through the books, play a lot, read more, play more, read more, play more, etc.

Slowly but surely I am improving. Some people would still rank me in the 'donkey' or 'fish' category, which is fine by me. We all have to start somewhere. But more importantly is where you end up.

These days I don't play just for the fun of it. When I play I am paying very special attention to a particular area of my game that I am trying to improve. At first I was trying NOT to play the SB every time. Then I was being more selective at pre-flop. Then I made the leap of NOT calling; either raise, re-raise or fold. Then I made the effort NOT limping in; raise or fold. etc. etc. etc. All these leaks in my game took TIME and patience to overcome. Didn't happen in a day or two and some of it was quite painful. But that's how you improve. At this rate by the end of the year I might actually be a half-decent player.

I'm glad you're reading Harrington, I have all three volumes. I have read them so many times they are starting to wear out. Notes in the margins, pen makers, day-glo highlights, etc. For MTT players that is the Bible.

I'm not really sure that reading books like HoH are that relevant to online play or even worth it but whatever (never read a poker book but honestly don't see the point with all the online resources).

Anyways, your stats are not LAG, but are moreorless bad-TAG no offence. Tighten up a bit coz 28 is way too loose when you don't really know what you are doing). When you are starting you probably want to aim for stats something like 18/15 or 20/16, etc. You are either open limping or cold calling alot or both. Just don't open limp and limit the majority of cold calling to times when you are in position and when you have a hand like a pp or s/c vs a tight opening range (so you have good implied odds) or suited broadways you don't want to 3B in position, etc. Aggression factor is super high (shouldn't really have anything over 3.5) but tiny sample size so you can't get much out of it.

But try to focus on position so play very tight from utg/+1 and play most of your volume from co/btn. Good to aim for an ats of at least 30%.

Other than that i'd advise you to grind micro sngs for sometime. Then once you have a bit of a roll give nl10 another shot. When i was learning and buildign a roll i just played micro sngs until i was rolled for nl25. I was never any good at sngs, but i didn't want to play super micro cash and the sngs at those levels are so awful you don't have to be any good to easily build a roll. One last things is just to not worry about it and just try to enjoy playing. Taking poker too seriously is a recipe for frustration, especially if you are still trying to figure out how to play.

And if you want to know how you managed to win some live 1/2 but can't online - it is coz the players who play 1/2 live probably couldn't even beat play money.

i seem to be having the same kind of problem lately. i've only tried money poker a little, and got really frustrated so i'm back to play money now. obviously it's not very effective trying to learn and get better there, but until i feel that i am a decent poker player i don't want to throw my money away again. i think most of what you guys have said is great, and i know i can learn a lot from it if i take the time to put it into practice. i think the biggest thing for me to learn is that poker is not easy. i have to really think about what's going on, no matter how low the limits. i find a lot of times that i just play based on my cards, and not think about any other aspects, just because i am lazy at the time. that's a great way to go nowhere and get frustrated and maybe start tilting. not sure if anyone else feels that way, but it's tough to get out of that rut once you're in it...

Ernster86 said:

No matter how good you think you are and how much you win, online poker is rigged IMHO and you always end up losing.

I'd play for fun and if you win, great...but you've got to be really LUCKY to make longterm profit and yes a huge part of is luck.

Just my opinion.

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Hahaha!!!!

We have a thread dedicated to it but it seems the paranoid schizophenic are now expanding to other thread.

frady2001 said:

So I started playing about 5 months ago and have really gotten into poker. An unfortunate personality trait of mine is that I cannot just do something recreationally. What I mean is that I have to be competitive at whatever I do, and I push myself until I am. Unfortunately things aren't going so well for me in poker and I am frustrated.

If I am equally skilled (or unskilled) at cash and SNG what would you suggest?

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I'm not sure I can help you there cos I play mostly MTTs.

But the first thing I'd say is that, surely you do not believe you are gonna be a winning player after just 5 months of playing. It's a bit like saying you would wanna win tennis tournaments after a few months of picking up the sport.

I've been playing poker for about 18 months and I am now a winning player. But after 5 months I was down about $600, -7% ROI I think it was, and that was despite making a final table that got me $1050!!!

So you can imagine how badly you're supposed to play after just 5 months.

In January 2008 came a realisation that completely changed the way I play and transformed me from a losing player into a winning one virtually overnight. I realised that I should keep calling to a strict minimum and prefer to bet or raise. I also finally grasped the concept of position.

I know some of you are gonna say "of course stupid"!! But remember how you played when you first started? Did you really understand poker was a bettor's game and that position was more important than cards?

I did not. I do now.

I think it's a part of the learning process. It certainly has been for me. I cashed in my first two casino tournaments, then went out in flames the next 8. I was up very quickly when I first started playing the .05/.10 tables online, then I was down well below my initial bankroll even faster. In both cases I came out ahead in the end. I just played live $1/2 NL for the first time and was up all 3 days, but towards the end of the last day I felt my play go downhill. The big problem with poker is that gains are hard fought but losses can come super fast when you make bad decisions.

You need to be able to step back a bit and evaluate your play and mental state. Sometimes you simply won't be in the right frame of mind to play well. The devil on your shoulder telling you that you can't lose takes over once in a while. You need to learn to recognize this in yourself and either correct it or take a break. Forget how far up or down you are, forget how pretty the hand looks. Get out of the situation ASAP and change something.

I've sworn off "playing a game in the background" online. If I'm going to play, it will get my full attention.

Seems like when you start out the game there is some good luck there....then learning strategy does help but can also boggle the game up if there is too much analysis from too many angles at once.
Strategy is important to know....just don't hit yourself over the head with books...It's great to learn from their tips but when in the actual game It's your playing and reading the players. Eventually it will come together for you.
Don't be afraid to fold.....I watched Chris Ferguson play at FT a few times.....he folded most of his hands and came out on top.

I played in smoke filled back rooms for many years. Recently I started playing online poker. I decided I wasn't going to deposit. I wanted to build a bankroll from nothing. At first I was getting nowhere. But I have slowly been able to build my bankroll up to about $100 through freerolls. Once I got a little bit from freerolls I started playing micros and have built from there. If you're trying to play seriously I believe there are many lesson to be learned from the freerolls. After all if you can't make money in the freerolls do you really want to risk your own cash?

Ernster86 said:

No matter how good you think you are and how much you win, online poker is rigged IMHO and you always end up losing.

I'd play for fun and if you win, great...but you've got to be really LUCKY to make longterm profit and yes a huge part of is luck.

Just my opinion.

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Sick of people saying this.. If theres no way to make money online, explain how nobodys gained hundreds of thousands of dollars playing online? explain where the prize money goes in the million dollar tourneys

poker is a complicated game. playing micros will save you a whole lot of money, and if you like to play tourneys play the 1 dollar by ins. or even better yet just play freerolls cause you dont have to but up any money and if you win you can take the winning and play in other tournaments. another thing dont take it the wrong way but this a game of of patients not gambling. i hope all this support and advise will help you keep your head up and good luck!!!

brandonnj said:

Sick of people saying this.. If theres no way to make money online, explain how nobodys gained hundreds of thousands of dollars playing online? explain where the prize money goes in the million dollar tourneys

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People think that because they take bad beats, the game is rigged. Also, they think that "bots" and or players working for FTP are the ones that win that prize money.

miseria said:

People think that because they take bad beats, the game is rigged. Also, they think that "bots" and or players working for FTP are the ones that win that prize money.

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I seen what I believed to be a bot the other day, he insta folded every hand until he was blinded off, So I guessed it was just UB throwing in a filler.

Thank you all for the encouragement. It actually is very helpful.

After some deep thought I think that I was trying to use too many advanced plays and thinking a bit too much about the low level play. I will start out with some micro SNGs and work my way up until I can play some .25NL (which ironically I had won a bit of money in 680 hands). The problem with the super micro cash games is the money is meaningless to me. Its just really hard to take a 6 penny raise seriously for me. At least with the micro SNG its chips and not pennies.

I will take another stab at it in a couple days. Thanks for the encouragement.

frady2001 said:

Thank you all for the encouragement. It actually is very helpful.

After some deep thought I think that I was trying to use too many advanced plays and thinking a bit too much about the low level play. I will start out with some micro SNGs and work my way up until I can play some .25NL (which ironically I had won a bit of money in 680 hands). The problem with the super micro cash games is the money is meaningless to me. Its just really hard to take a 6 penny raise seriously for me. At least with the micro SNG its chips and not pennies.

I will take another stab at it in a couple days. Thanks for the encouragement.

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Honestly all the books you mentioned are great but you'll likely learn way more about playing micro-stakes online ring games by searching CC for ChuckTs 10K post (it's in the golden archive). The basic TAG play he advises will net you a lot of $$.

Also posting replies as to how you would play in the HA section here is another way to greatly improve your game without risking any of your own $$. If you make a suggestion that is wrong or misguided you'll be told so and be told why, which will make you think the next time you're faced with the same decision for your own $$.

Stick around and gl.

WVHillbilly said:

Honestly all the books you mentioned are great but you'll likely learn way more about playing micro-stakes online ring games by searching CC for ChuckTs 10K post (it's in the golden archive). The basic TAG play he advises will net you a lot of $$.

Also posting replies as to how you would play in the HA section here is another way to greatly improve your game without risking any of your own $$. If you make a suggestion that is wrong or misguided you'll be told so and be told why, which will make you think the next time you're faced with the same decision for your own $$.

Stick around and gl.

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I haven't frequented that forum much, but I will make it a habit to be there more.