The Fundamental Theorem of Donk Poker

zinzir · Apr 6, 2020

The Fundamental Theorem of Donk Poker:
"As a donk, every time your pre flop shove is called by an opponent of superior poker skill, you gain and he loses. Conversely, every time you call a pre flop shove made by a bigger donk than yourself, you lose and he gains."
Notes:
1. The above theorem applies regardless of the actual cards held by players.
2. It is intended to be a funny observation and should not be interpreted as a way to increase one's profitability as a poker player.

Please let me know what you guys and girls think about it

PS: The Fundamental Theorem of Donk Poker is an adaptation of Sklansky's Fundamental Theorem of Poker, which I posted in a previous thread:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/learning-poker-57/fundamental-theorem-poker-453644/

MattRyder · Apr 6, 2020

I've seen it happen so often I don't really give it much thought anymore. I fold most hands, call/re-raise with AA or KK, sometimes call with AKs.

It really stands out when people shove out of the blue for no obvious reason. It usually means they've got a monster and don't know how to play it post-flop, so I try to give them a wide berth unless they're on the short side or I am.

Pokerishard · Apr 6, 2020

It is a really nice theme mate.....I prefer to be in poker like in life about DONKS : Let the Donk alone, he will kill himself...Don try never to convince a donk is DONK...because a donk have the brain very relax because is not using him...It is cruel when a famous DONK shove with 3...6 8..5 9..2 and is crusching your AA KK QQ or JJ......but in long term paly...DONK will be always a DONKEY....no chance off progress for DONKS

Sintubai · Apr 6, 2020

This theorem always happens at the tables and it will always happen! Going hunting for donkeys is not always the best way, let him stumble and fall in front of you to finish him off!! Rs [emoji453][emoji41]

zinzir · Apr 6, 2020

CLARIFICATION:

My theorem is not about donks being lucky.

The terms "gain" and "lose" are not to be interpreted in terms of winning or losing hands. The meaning is every time you succeed in dragging a more skilled opponent into the pre flop uncertainty, you are essentially creating an even field, hence gain. Starting hand strength and whoever doubles up or busts in the hand is irrelevant.

Please read Sklansky's Fundamental Theorem of Poker by clicking the link below if you are not familiar with it:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/learning-poker-57/fundamental-theorem-poker-453644/

finaltable1 · Apr 6, 2020

zinzir said:
The Fundamental Theorem of Donk Poker:
"As a donk, every time your pre flop shove is called by an opponent of superior poker skill, you gain and he loses. Conversely, every time you call a pre flop shove made by a bigger donk than yourself, you lose and he gains."
Notes:
1. The above theorem applies regardless of the actual cards held by players.
2. It is intended to be a funny observation and should not be interpreted as a way to increase one's profitability as a poker player.

Please let me know what you guys and girls think about it

PS: The Fundamental Theorem of Donk Poker is an adaptation of Sklansky's Fundamental Theorem of Poker, which I posted in a previous thread:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/learning-poker-57/fundamental-theorem-poker-453644/

a635a127081fb95e19cfcfea5de3bcab--stephen-hawking-search.jpg

Martin Carreira · Apr 6, 2020

Hi, I don't know much about the theorem. But I do know what happens to me many times with donk ahah. I lose incredible hands, lots of bad beats, straight vs full, full vs poker. And the truth is that this makes me very angry since the rival plays with hands that must be discarded in 95% of cases.

xOneCoolHandx · Apr 7, 2020

zinzir said:
The Fundamental Theorem of Donk Poker:
"As a donk, every time your pre flop shove is called by an opponent of superior poker skill, you gain and he loses. Conversely, every time you call a pre flop shove made by a bigger donk than yourself, you lose and he gains."
Notes:
1. The above theorem applies regardless of the actual cards held by players.
2. It is intended to be a funny observation and should not be interpreted as a way to increase one's profitability as a poker player.

Please let me know what you guys and girls think about it

PS: The Fundamental Theorem of Donk Poker is an adaptation of Sklansky's Fundamental Theorem of Poker, which I posted in a previous thread:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/learning-poker-57/fundamental-theorem-poker-453644/

I think the inverse is true. Because you are a donk (not YOU personally because I know you don't play like a donk, so please don't think I mean YOU are a donk) then players of superior skill SHOULD be calling you because often they should be getting it in with the best of it and winning a majority of the time. Sure, the donk will get lucky some percentage of the time but really, the donk (similar to a maniac) profit by players over-folding, not calling. This actually fits well with Slansky's Theorem because if you could see the donks cards then you would know that you are generally a strong favorite over them and you would call more often and not less often.

rj_montana · Apr 7, 2020

The donk lives for the pre-flop all in and the re-shove with flush and straight draws. Coin flip or even 60/40 is a great outcome. Donkey remembers being rewarded for this play in the past and subconsciously seeks to repeat.

zinzir · Apr 7, 2020

xOneCoolHandx said:
I think the inverse is true. Because you are a donk (not YOU personally because I know you don't play like a donk, so please don't think I mean YOU are a donk) then players of superior skill SHOULD be calling you because often they should be getting it in with the best of it and winning a majority of the time. Sure, the donk will get lucky some percentage of the time but really, the donk (similar to a maniac) profit by players over-folding, not calling. This actually fits well with Slansky's Theorem because if you could see the donks cards then you would know that you are generally a strong favorite over them and you would call more often and not less often.

First, thank you for actually addressing the theorem and not your own feelings about donks

Second, you should address me as a donk for it is the truth. I make over sized bets as close to pre flop as possible, and that makes me a classical donk. I am never being offended by being called a donk, I am actually proud of being one

Coming back to your rationale, please note that the theorem is independent of the particular cards held by the players.
When you are a superior player, your edge does not come from being dealt better cards, but from knowing how to play them post flop.

So, when you accept my proposal and go all in before the flop, you are effectively throwing your edge down the drain and become just another donk playing bingo with me for the next 5 cards to come.
You might or might not hold a better starting hand, and that is irrelevant anyway, for according to the theorem I gain and you lose regardless of who actually wins the hand.

DoIHaveAFlush · Apr 7, 2020

:-D A very nice Theorem, made me smile.

In this case, I would consider myself a semi-donk. I do sometimes shove preflop with QQ+.

However, sometimes I do not win...hm...I guess I should go back to donk-school..

tagece · Apr 7, 2020

It happened with me today in a sit and go.. I had a stupid whale on my left, calling everything and playing all the hands.

I was in the BB, 4/7 in the tourney and he limped in the UTG. Another player limped too. I had KTo in the BB, and shoved expecting that he would call with trash and the other player fold, as it happened.

Then he showed a 94s. Of course, I lost to a pair of 4s and leaved the table. But I left the table open after that, and saw that he won the tournament with crazy plays like that!

I think he is now making a deposit on pokerstars to play high stakes with all the skills he discovered he has. :laugh:

najisami · Apr 7, 2020

I'm not going to address the theorem itself. I just want to point out that somehow the "donk" gets awarded way too many times despite the odds which makes it hard to believe that he'd lose on the long run as it is often said.

xOneCoolHandx · Apr 8, 2020

zinzir said:
First, thank you for actually addressing the theorem and not your own feelings about donks

Second, you should address me as a donk for it is the truth. I make over sized bets as close to pre flop as possible, and that makes me a classical donk. I am never being offended by being called a donk, I am actually proud of being one

Coming back to your rationale, please note that the theorem is independent of the particular cards held by the players.
When you are a superior player, your edge does not come from being dealt better cards, but from knowing how to play them post flop.

So, when you accept my proposal and go all in before the flop, you are effectively throwing your edge down the drain and become just another donk playing bingo with me for the next 5 cards to come.
You might or might not hold a better starting hand, and that is irrelevant anyway, for according to the theorem I gain and you lose regardless of who actually wins the hand.

The theorem is: "Every time you play a hand differently from the way you would have played it if you could see all your opponents' cards, they gain; and every time you play your hand the same way you would have played it if you could see all their cards, they lose."

Therefore, this is not a post-flop theory. This applies to every faucet of the game. A donk does not neutralize the skill advantage of the opposing player by pushing all in and taking away postflop play because the skilled player has observed the donk's strategy and analyzed his range and SHOULD call with a superior range. He is playing the hand as if the cards were face up. It is not bingo (although it seems like it online) because the statistical advantage lies with the caller. He is calling with a 60/40 or better edge. The pot odds are going to vary but the caller is never getting worse that 50/50 (that is if you both put your whole stacks in on the very first hand and there were no blinds or antes). You can see that even the worst part of the caller's range should be a 60/40 fav, so he is actually gaining equity everytime you push all in and he calls. Therefore, the inverse of your theory is actually true.

:rock:

GIRFIED · Apr 8, 2020

zinzir said:
The Fundamental Theorem of Donk Poker:
"As a donk, every time your pre flop shove is called by an opponent of superior poker skill, you gain and he loses. Conversely, every time you call a pre flop shove made by a bigger donk than yourself, you lose and he gains."

Your theory rhymes like a poem... In practice many times those "Donk" have gotten me into trouble.

Fernet · Apr 8, 2020

No donk people

The truth is that I am totally against the donk, it is a recreational move or a regular evil, it shows totally weakness, and in case you have courage, it is a very bad way of playing the hand, donk don’t do gentlemen

zinzir · Apr 9, 2020

xOneCoolHandx said:
The theorem is: "Every time you play a hand differently from the way you would have played it if you could see all your opponents' cards, they gain; and every time you play your hand the same way you would have played it if you could see all their cards, they lose."

Therefore, this is not a post-flop theory. This applies to every faucet of the game. A donk does not neutralize the skill advantage of the opposing player by pushing all in and taking away postflop play because the skilled player has observed the donk's strategy and analyzed his range and SHOULD call with a superior range. He is playing the hand as if the cards were face up. It is not bingo (although it seems like it online) because the statistical advantage lies with the caller. He is calling with a 60/40 or better edge. The pot odds are going to vary but the caller is never getting worse that 50/50 (that is if you both put your whole stacks in on the very first hand and there were no blinds or antes). You can see that even the worst part of the caller's range should be a 60/40 fav, so he is actually gaining equity everytime you push all in and he calls. Therefore, the inverse of your theory is actually true.

:rock:

We are talking apples and oranges. I agree with pretty much everything you said in both of your posts, it's just that your statements are parallel to my theorem.

You are using Sklansky's theorem to address how to deal with loose and/or aggressive players. My theorem has nothing to do with that. The only things that my theorem borrowed from Sklansky's are the format and the meaning of the terms "gain" and "lose" which imply gaining and losing value, and not winning or losing hands or money or sessions.

Again, my theorem is independent of the particular cards held by the players, player ranges, seeing or not seeing the cards. All that stuff has no influence on my theorem. Even if the players have their cards exposed my theorem stays the same.

All my theorem states is that a player benefits the most from putting all the money in pre flop if he is facing a more experienced opponent, and from making the largest bet after the river when facing a less experienced opponent. The reason is that the less experienced player is expected to make mistakes on each betting round and the more experienced player capitalizes on them.

It does not imply that a good player should not go all in pre flop with his strong holdings. It just states that when doing that against an inferior opponent he loses some value, because now it's up to the hazard to determine the winner and the superior player's skill becomes irrelevant towards what happens on the flop, turn and river. The value is lost regardless if the inferior player hods 72, AA, or anything in between, because if the hand was played any other way, the better player would have the value of capitalizing on opponent's mistakes added to the mathematical probability of winning the hand based on the cards he is holding.

zinzir · Apr 10, 2020

rj_montana said:
The donk lives for the pre-flop all in and the re-shove with flush and straight draws. Coin flip or even 60/40 is a great outcome. Donkey remembers being rewarded for this play in the past and subconsciously seeks to repeat.

That's exactly right, what I am saying is that it is actually the correct play for someone facing opponents of superior poker skill. Any other way the donk would play those hands his odds of doubling up would plummet, and he would most likely win little when his hand improves and lose big when it doesn't, not even counting the lost fold equity.
And when you say "subconscious" I say "instinct" which is the same thing but sounds better. And I believe everyone should listen to his instinct, not only the donk, for instinct knows you and your poker level better than your conscious mind.

PS: Your Newman avatar was awesome, too bad you replaced it

The Fundamental Theorem of Donk Poker

zinzir

Legend

MattRyder

🍏 Tech That Works!

Pokerishard

Visionary

Sintubai

Legend

zinzir

Legend

finaltable1

Legend

Martin Carreira

Visionary

xOneCoolHandx

Legend

rj_montana

Visionary

zinzir

Legend

DoIHaveAFlush

Rock Star

tagece

Legend

najisami

Legend

xOneCoolHandx

Legend

GIRFIED

Rock Star

Fernet

Rock Star

zinzir

Legend

zinzir

Legend

About CardsChat

Our Community

Our Site