To all the rebuy gurus

diamond_06_06 · Mar 19, 2009

I haven't played many tournaments lately and not a NLHE rebuy for about 9 months or so.

My question is when it comes to the add-on part of the tourney. Do you absolutely always add-on? Do you never?

When I used to play them before I would not add-on if I was severely short and the extra chips would not have made a big difference, or if I was the monster chip leader and the extra chips were insignificant compared to my stack.

I was just wondering what your thoughts were as to when these levels came into being, ie: when do you become too short or too big for the add-on.

I just finished my 1st turbo rebuy on partypoker. It was a $6 rebuy and 60 players started . After the first hour there were 28 left. The average chipstack was approx. 28K, the big stack had 120K, and I was sitting on 70K. Blinds were 1,500/3,000 with a 75 chip ante. The top 6 people were paid.

I elected not to take the add-on as I did not think it was good value. $5 for 4,500 chips (was only 6.5% of my stack). What are your thoughts on wether it was worth the money or not?

For what its worth I placed 4th in the tourney for $156. Not sure if taking the rebuy would have made some difference.

chefjimmy · Mar 19, 2009

rebuys?

i never ever rebuy....with the single exception of one for fpp,s other than that its just a personal thing...i just play what i have win or lose.

Debi · Mar 19, 2009

I don't play re-buys too often but when I do I always make the initial re-buy and always do the add-on. I wouldn't play if I didn't feel I could afford that.

And really during the first hour I think you need to be prepared for another re-buy if needed. If you are not willing to put it all in on your decent hands to buidl your stack I don't think you will have enough chips to compete with those who were.

only_bridge · Mar 19, 2009

Usally you should add-on, no matter how big or small your stack is.
In a normal MTT it really doesnt have anything to do with how big or small your stack is, instead its correlated to how big percentage of the total prize pool you pay compared to the percentage of the total chips in the tourney you get.

Snowmobiler · Mar 19, 2009

I always add-on.I believe you should get all the chips you can to give yourself the best chance to win.I especially think being a short stack you have to add-on.The power of doubling up can get you back in a tourney quick.If you add-on to a 1000 chip stack for example and now have 3000,then double to 6000,double again to 12,000 your back in most tourneys.I think a chip and a chair applys here,so give yourself the best chance to win.

Shylax · Mar 19, 2009

First if you don't have the money to play a rebuy, you shouldn't play them. I don't play them unless I'm sure I have at least 5 rebuys in my account.

Second, ALWAYS buy the initial addon. There's no logic whatsoever for not getting a double up without actually playing a hand.

After the addon, just play regular poker. I know it gets crazy that first hour but play your game and wait for the best opportunity. If you wouldn't go all in preflop with 55, let's say, don't do it in the first hour of a rebuy.

After the first hour, if you built a ridiculous stack or are extremely short stacked, I would pass on the final add-on. If you have a huge stack and the addon doesn't percentage wise increase your stack significantly than pass. Let's say you built a 40,000 stack and the addon gives you 2000, save your money. Why waste money on a 5% increase to your stack? Conversely if you have 500 and the addon gives you 2000, I'd probably not waste money on an addon. I'd still be one of the shortstacks in the second hour so I'd save the money.

But since those are the two extremes, I'm ALWAYS buying the initial addon and 90% buying the final add-on.

Nickmond · Mar 19, 2009

Yeah, you almost have to go in winning to do one rebuy and/or add-on in order to play one of those...In the early going, people bet and call like wild as they know they can always buy more chips, which can lead to some unfortunate bad beats, especially in lower priced tournets

Irexes · Mar 19, 2009

You should continue to rebuy as long as proper bankroll management allows, whether it's once or 20 times, it's not really relevant. What's actually important is how you loosen and change your strategy to take account of the rebuy structure.

And always, always, always add-on.

Egon Towst · Mar 19, 2009

diamond_06_06 said:
When I used to play them before I would not add-on if I was severely short and the extra chips would not have made a big difference, or if I was the monster chip leader and the extra chips were insignificant compared to my stack.

^^ This is pretty much my approach too, and it makes sense to me. I started playing that way after I read advice to that effect in (I think) a magazine article. As a rough rule of thumb, I will take the addon unless I am in the top 10% (no point) or the bottom 10% (no hope).

Strange things happen though. Only yesterday, I declined the addon because I took a hit just before the break and was almost last. In the next hour, I made a miracle recovery and went on to finish ITM.

It`s a funny game.

blankoblanco · Mar 19, 2009

Irexes said:
And always, always, always add-on.

this. pros have done the math and shown that you have to hold a ridiculous % of the chips in play to make it not worth adding on. it will basically never happen to you. rule of thumb is ALWAYS add-on. the only legitimate reasons for not adding on are the same reasons for not playing the tournament in the first place (mostly bankroll considerations)

not adding on because you think you're too short to have any hope is actually bizarre (il)logic. the shorter you are, the more meaningful an addon is to you. with 1 chip left, you might have a .001% chance of final tabling, with 3001 chips, that could easily increase 200fold. most of the time you're paying a few bucks for a very significantly increased % chance of going deep and getting a huge score

case in point: doubling up increases chips exponentially. a stack of 2k doubling up 8 times will end up with 512k. a stack of 5k doubling up 8 times (the addons are usually for 3k chips, at least on pokerstars) will end up with 1.28 million. that 3k can turn into tens of thousands can turn into hundreds of thousands very quickly

dj11 · Mar 19, 2009

diamond_06_06 said:
I just finished my 1st turbo rebuy on partypoker. It was a $6 rebuy and 60 players started . After the first hour there were 28 left. The average chipstack was approx. 28K, the big stack had 120K, and I was sitting on 70K. Blinds were 1,500/3,000 with a 75 chip ante. The top 6 people were paid.

I elected not to take the add-on as I did not think it was good value. $5 for 4,500 chips (was only 6.5% of my stack). What are your thoughts on wether it was worth the money or not?

For what its worth I placed 4th in the tourney for $156. Not sure if taking the rebuy would have made some difference.

The TURBO part of that tourney brings in a whole other dimension. With regular rebuys, a larger percentage of the players will still be in at the break, in which case adding on is almost essential. However, the turbo part suggests folks burned thru their allotment much faster. So fast that less than 1/2 the field remained at the break. Very very unusual for a rebuy.

In this case I think you were right not to waste the money. You were in very good shape, and I would vote that the extra (relatively few ) chips wouldn't have made much difference.

But in general, adding on is the right thing to do.

Egon Towst · Mar 19, 2009

combuboom said:
not adding on because you think you're too short to have any hope is actually bizarre (il)logic. the shorter you are, the more meaningful an addon is to you. with 1 chip left, you might have a .001% chance of final tabling, with 3001 chips, that could easily increase 200fold. most of the time you're paying a few bucks for a very significantly increased % chance of going deep and getting a huge score

That is one way of looking at it.

However, I could equally well argue that (if I am severely short stacked) I increase my overall winning potential still further by taking my money and using it to buy in to a new tourney where I will play with a stack equal to that of the other players.

If I am so low in this tourney that the addon will still leave me short-stacked, I am paying for the dubious privelige of playing as an underdog.

blankoblanco · Mar 19, 2009

but given the nature of rebuys, it's generally worth it. there is so much money in the prize pool relative to the $3 more you have to put in

let's use the 1 chip example with a typical stars $3r. i opened the tourney lobby of one that completed to look. it pays about the top 20%. first pay spot is $21.39

so your options are to either give up, effectively losing and not cashing that tournament (save for the .00001% of the time you double up like 16 times or so), and use your $3 in another tournament. or to spend $3 to add-on and have 3001 chips

if you spend the $3, you only need to mincash 14% of the time to make the investment pay for itself. and don't forget that by the rebuy period, as much as 20% of the starting field may already be out. it's really not that difficult to work a shortstack into something meaningful and place in the top fifth a reasonable amount of the time. the blinds give you some room to work with, even with only 3k. in my experience you're no more than 2 double-ups away from an average stack at that point

this is looking at it as if the only options are to either mincash or not cash at all. add in all the times it leads you to a greater cash, which is where almost all of real MTT profits come from anyway, and it's a ridiculously good investment for a solid player IMO

diamond_06_06 · Mar 19, 2009

Shylax said:
First if you don't have the money to play a rebuy, you shouldn't play them. I don't play them unless I'm sure I have at least 5 rebuys in my account.

Second, ALWAYS buy the initial addon. There's no logic whatsoever for not getting a double up without actually playing a hand.

Firstly, I do have sufficient BR to play this tourney effectively and could have rebought 50+ times if needed.

Secondly I was not asking about the initial rebuy. I will always begin a rebuy tournament by rebuying straight away, and then will double rebuy if I get stacked. This is not what my question was about.

Irexes said:
You should continue to rebuy as long as proper bankroll management allows, whether it's once or 20 times, it's not really relevant. What's actually important is how you loosen and change your strategy to take account of the rebuy structure.

Same as above. I agree with your strategy. Was just interested in peoples thoughts on the add-on.

So you are saying that it is always +ve EV to add-on, and there is never ever any reason not to do so?

dj11 said:
The TURBO part of that tourney brings in a whole other dimension. With regular rebuys, a larger percentage of the players will still be in at the break, in which case adding on is almost essential. However, the turbo part suggests folks burned thru their allotment much faster. So fast that less than 1/2 the field remained at the break. Very very unusual for a rebuy.

In this case I think you were right not to waste the money. You were in very good shape, and I would vote that the extra (relatively few ) chips wouldn't have made much difference.

But in general, adding on is the right thing to do.

Yes this was a turbo, and because of this the prize pool had swollen a fair bit. 60 people ran in the tourney and the prizepool ended up being $1420+. Less then half were still around at the break. Not sure if the swollen prizepool should make you even more inclined to take the add-on.

Also because it was a turbo the add-on equalled far less than 1 orbit worth of chips.

Egon Towst said:
That is one way of looking at it.

However, I could equally well argue that (if I am severely short stacked) I increase my overall winning potential still further by taking my money and using it to buy in to a new tourney where I will play with a stack equal to that of the other players.

If I am so low in this tourney that the addon will still leave me short-stacked, I am paying for the dubious privelige of playing as an underdog.

This is kinda my thought process also. If I believe that even after I rebuy and then double up it will not give me a competitive stack I will not usually bother. For example if the average stack is 30,000 and after I add-on I have 5,000 chips, even if I double up twice I am still far from average.

combuboom said:
this. pros have done the math and shown that you have to hold a ridiculous % of the chips in play to make it not worth adding on. it will basically never happen to you. rule of thumb is ALWAYS add-on. the only legitimate reasons for not adding on are the same reasons for not playing the tournament in the first place (mostly bankroll considerations)

not adding on because you think you're too short to have any hope is actually bizarre (il)logic. the shorter you are, the more meaningful an addon is to you. with 1 chip left, you might have a .001% chance of final tabling, with 3001 chips, that could easily increase 200fold. most of the time you're paying a few bucks for a very significantly increased % chance of going deep and getting a huge score

But I don't believe increasing your chances from .001% chance of final tabling to a .20% chance is a worthwhile investment.

blankoblanco · Mar 19, 2009

obviously i was just throwing around numbers. but even if that pitifully small .2% chance to final table was right... take a typical stars $3 rebuy, again. your average score at the final table will be something like $2000. 0.2% of $2000 is $4. so you'd be paying $3 more for $4 more in expectation ONLY counting the times you final table. add in all the other cashes, and ship the $$$. it'd be worth the add-on easily

but again i just used a silly number that is probably even too low. the point is it's been all but proven that it is a worthwhile investment as long as you're +EV to begin with

if that's not enough, irexes is in agreement that you should always add-on, and since it's about MTTs i'd probably listen to him!

dd_decker · Mar 20, 2009

In general, if you do add on, you are gaining an advantage to anyone who has not added on. If you do not add on, you are at a disadvantage to everyone that does. You have to weigh the effect the advantage or disadvantage will have according to your chip strack, the prize pool, where you stand in the tourney, etc... Sometimes it is well worth it, sometimes not. All variables that add to the uncertainty of poker and makes poker so interesting and debatable. Rebuys have thier own special situations also. Lots of good posts above explaining many of these...

FEARFACTOR · Mar 20, 2009

Personally, I hate rebuy tourneys with a passion. The quality of poker is rediculous in my book. I always get stuck on a table with two or three idiots that ruin the game. Most that I've seen, if you do just one rebuy, you have to make the money just to break even. Sure, the higher places pay out more, but it's so tough to get there with all the donks playing any two cards and sucking out. The few times I have played them and made it past the first hour, I definately will add on.

Poker Orifice · Mar 20, 2009

FEARFACTOR said:
Personally, I hate rebuy tourneys with a passion. The quality of poker is rediculous in my book. I always get stuck on a table with two or three idiots that ruin the game. Most that I've seen, if you do just one rebuy, you have to make the money just to break even. Sure, the higher places pay out more, but it's so tough to get there with all the donks playing any two cards and sucking out. The few times I have played them and made it past the first hour, I definately will add on.

Okay I don't want to berate you but this reply is just too funny. What appears to be loose 'rediculous' play (in your book) is often times good strategy during the rebuy portion of a rebuy tournament. First off you have to understand what rebuy tourneys are about.. .in short they are a deepstack tourney that starts after the rebuy period... BUT you need to know how to play the rebuy period also because your chances of going deep in the tourney will be greatly reduced if you're not heading into the next portion of the tourney with a decent-sized stack (ie. you'd prefer to have 5,000 - 6,500chips+ prior to add-on).
Another point you mention that I have to disagree on is 'the payout structure' of a typical online rebuy. Take a look at the $3 rebuy on Pokerstars. Just making it into the money is usually $20 if not $30.

When I first started playing poker online and I entered a rebuy tourney I thought it was a donkfest. I knew very little at the time about what it was really all about. If you're considering playing more rebuys, I'd strongly suggest checking out some decent rebuy strategy guides prior to doing so cuz you're really limiting your odds of winning it by trying to play it like a freezeout. I've checked out a 4-part training video series of an online pro playing a rebuy. That really opened my eyes up to more of what was going on.

*20rebuys I'd think would be overkill.... I'm going to have to take into consideration the payout structure and prizepool prior to rebuying more than a half dozen times or so (but I am a Bankroll Management nit). I don't want to rebuy so many times that I'm going to have to finish in the top 20 to break even.

to 'OP',... personally I would always take the add-on. If my stack is too small?? (I'm not going to be in it if my stack is too small??... If I'm short and have intentions of playing after rebuy period, I'm going to purposefully drop below starting stack in order to rebuy prior to the addon). In other words, if I'm still around I'm always going to rebuy. If my stack is HUGE and rebuy chips aren't significant, I won't bother (in some as you know, rebuy chips are much greater than orig. starting stack).
In short... "yah.. I'm almost always getting the add-on"

Poker Orifice · Mar 20, 2009

dd_decker said:
In general, if you do add on, you are gaining an advantage to anyone who has not added on. If you do not add on, you are at a disadvantage to everyone that does. You have to weigh the effect the advantage or disadvantage will have according to your chip strack, the prize pool, where you stand in the tourney, etc... Sometimes it is well worth it, sometimes not. All variables that add to the uncertainty of poker and makes poker so interesting and debatable. Rebuys have thier own special situations also. Lots of good posts above explaining many of these...

I should've just read this first..... 'Good Answer!'

left52side · Mar 20, 2009

I generally only play micro olo limit rebuys on cake poker.
I try not to rebuy or add on at all.
I find it really easy to get a huge chip stack by just a little patient and feeding off the rebuy nuts.
so usually I dont ever have to rebuy or add on.
One exception is I might add on the chips if I am running average or a little above average or to bump me up to average.

diamond_06_06 · Mar 20, 2009

combuboom said:
obviously i was just throwing around numbers. but even if that pitifully small .2% chance to final table was right... take a typical stars $3 rebuy, again. your average score at the final table will be something like $2000. 0.2% of $2000 is $4. so you'd be paying $3 more for $4 more in expectation ONLY counting the times you final table. add in all the other cashes, and ship the $$$. it'd be worth the add-on easily

but again i just used a silly number that is probably even too low. the point is it's been all but proven that it is a worthwhile investment as long as you're +EV to begin with

if that's not enough, irexes is in agreement that you should always add-on, and since it's about MTTs i'd probably listen to him!

Yeah I do agree that you guys are right, I guess I just wanted to know the specific reasons as to why declining the add-on is wrong in all situations. Combu you said in your first post that all the top pros have done calculations as to why it is always correct to add-on. Do you have a link to that thread/article.

Thanks

Exit141RTe1 · Mar 20, 2009

For me it is no to the rebuy, although I will say I have on occasion did complete the purchase. I will add on at the break for the stretch run.

FEARFACTOR · Mar 20, 2009

Poker Orifice said:
Okay I don't want to berate you but this reply is just too funny. What appears to be loose 'rediculous' play (in your book) is often times good strategy during the rebuy portion of a rebuy tournament. First off you have to understand what rebuy tourneys are about.. .in short they are a deepstack tourney that starts after the rebuy period... BUT you need to know how to play the rebuy period also because your chances of going deep in the tourney will be greatly reduced if you're not heading into the next portion of the tourney with a decent-sized stack (ie. you'd prefer to have 5,000 - 6,500chips+ prior to add-on).
Another point you mention that I have to disagree on is 'the payout structure' of a typical online rebuy. Take a look at the $3 rebuy on Pokerstars. Just making it into the money is usually $20 if not $30.

When I first started playing poker online and I entered a rebuy tourney I thought it was a donkfest. I knew very little at the time about what it was really all about. If you're considering playing more rebuys, I'd strongly suggest checking out some decent rebuy strategy guides prior to doing so cuz you're really limiting your odds of winning it by trying to play it like a freezeout. I've checked out a 4-part training video series of an online pro playing a rebuy. That really opened my eyes up to more of what was going on.

*20rebuys I'd think would be overkill.... I'm going to have to take into consideration the payout structure and prizepool prior to rebuying more than a half dozen times or so (but I am a Bankroll Management nit). I don't want to rebuy so many times that I'm going to have to finish in the top 20 to break even.

to 'OP',... personally I would always take the add-on. If my stack is too small?? (I'm not going to be in it if my stack is too small??... If I'm short and have intentions of playing after rebuy period, I'm going to purposefully drop below starting stack in order to rebuy prior to the addon). In other words, if I'm still around I'm always going to rebuy. If my stack is HUGE and rebuy chips aren't significant, I won't bother (in some as you know, rebuy chips are much greater than orig. starting stack).
In short... "yah.. I'm almost always getting the add-on"

Your strategy is exactly why I don't play them. My strategy is not to play them as a freezeout, but rather don't play them at all. It is too funny to me that you like these donkfests!

P.S.
I think you are too funny for stating the obvious. I do understand the concept of rebuys. I just don't like them. Don't take me for an idiot.

blankoblanco · Mar 20, 2009

there's an old thread about it on 2+2, diamond, but i'm unable to find it. i know that greg raymer posted in it though. i'll let you know if i find it or anything else

Egon Towst · Mar 20, 2009

I can provide insight from a pro.

Arnold Snyder, in his detailed, well-respected and closely calculated study of tournament strategies "The Poker Tournament Formula", wrote that you should take the addon in most circumstances,

"but there will occasionally be exceptions to the rule. If, for example, you have already lost most of your starting chips, and the add-on would simply provide you with a short stack to continue, then you might decide to forego the add-on. If you would not initially buy into a tournament with such a serious chip handicap compared to your opponents - even at a discounted price - then the add-on is a bad investment."

I believe that is almost exactly what I said.

To all the rebuy gurus

diamond_06_06

Rock Star

chefjimmy

Rock Star

Debi

Forum Admin

only_bridge

Legend

Snowmobiler

Legend

Shylax

Rock Star

Nickmond

Rock Star

Irexes

Legend

Egon Towst

Cardschat Elite

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode

dj11

Legend

Egon Towst

Cardschat Elite

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode

diamond_06_06

Rock Star

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode

dd_decker

Rock Star

FEARFACTOR

Rock Star

Poker Orifice

FoolsTilt

Poker Orifice

FoolsTilt

left52side

Legend

diamond_06_06

Rock Star

Exit141RTe1

Legend

FEARFACTOR

Rock Star

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode

Egon Towst

Cardschat Elite

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