Stacking fish

i was donking around as i suddenly learned how to stack fish XD
Pacific Poker - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 120.5 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 186 BB
MP: 33.5 BB
Hero (CO): 332 BB
BTN: 174.5 BB (Hands: 5 VPIP:80 PFR:0)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♥ 4♥

fold, MP raises to 4 BB, Hero raises to 10 BB, BTN calls 10 BB, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (25.5 BB, 2 players) 4♣ 7♠ 6♠
Hero bets 18.5 BB, BTN calls 18.5 BB

Turn: (62.5 BB, 2 players) A♥
Hero bets 46 BB, BTN raises to 92 BB, Hero raises to 303.5 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 54 BB and is all-in

River: (354.5 BB, 2 players) 4♦

Hero shows J♥ 4♥ (Three of a Kind, Fours)
(Pre 57%, Flop 50%, Turn 68%)
BTN shows 8♦ 9♣ (One Pair, Fours)
(Pre 43%, Flop 50%, Turn 32%)
Hero wins 332.5 BB

they always chase their draws till the bitter end...

well, good for you.
If you found a good solution to take their cash, great.

Keep up keeping up.

This could be considered criticism to your donking around, but in my opinion you made some mistakes in this hand.
Preflop J4 suited should be a fold since it doesn't play that well postflop.
Usually when you will make a pair or flush with J4s and get action, you will be dominated.
Postflop you played the hand like a two pair/set when you have bottom pair.
Which means that if your opponent has a set or straight you are drawing dead.
Your opponent could have a lot of straight/flush draws that play that way, but if they have Ax of spades now you are way behind.
Versus their particular hand your play was the best, but if your opponent was playing correctly or just got lucky to hit on that board, you would have stacked yourself with bottom pair.

I hope you appreciate my honesty here. No means to be rude but it will sound harsh.

Haze of Spade said:

i was donking around [...]

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This sums up youre hand, period.

This was played so bad that i certanly wonder whos the fish in this hand. Dont get me wrong, he plays like a Fish aswell. Calling a 3bet with that hand he probably has a higher EV playing slots. And then chasing a naked straightdraw for those sizings playing x/c IP is infinite bad. But so is youre open and youre postflop game. This spot and similar ones will cost you money. What you do right now constiously or unconstiously is thinking resultsorientated. aka "I won this had, so i made a good play" wich translates to a mindset of trying to win the game hand by hand. Wich is not how you want to approach the game. A true winrate is obtained over a sample of 500k+ hands for a limit, just to give you some perspective. You can figure out if youre a winning or loosing player pretty quickly over small samples, but variance is a key element to this game. Even this V could be beating LinusLove over a stretch of 10K Hands, just because hes running good. And this is what keeps bad players interested in game, they dont see the big picture. 90% of people playing poker loose in the longrun, wich is what feeds the economy of the game.

Alltough you might be able to asume that V is a fish due to the fact that he is new in the pool and you dont have a sample on him, this only works if you know the pool. Like you have been 10 tabling for a month+ each day and know for a fact that hes new. And even then you dont know for sure, everything below 100 Hands is = 0 Hands. And even with 100 Hands you only get a very very vage idea of what kind of player he is.

This is what you should be up against after a 3bet CC from the BU vs a weak player: https://gyazo.com/14b625c964df04ebe90b6470b2aa256b
And this one excludes that he also might be trapping AA KK here. Usually you will find Vs with a even tighter range.

Lets pretend you open vs what a pretty loose villain should call vs CO:
https://gyazo.com/93923f3eaba4aa6e3bf9752a9d484ab4
Still sucks.

Summing this up, i think you should take a step back from the game, learning proper ranges and work on youre mindset and approach for a couple of weeks before hitting the tables again. Everything else is a waste of time, will lead to frustration and most importantly will cost you money.

This game is hard enough knowing all these things and trying to respect them, trust me.

Best Regards

You showed incredible reading of the opponent to put everything with the lowest pair on the table.

Haze of Spade said:

i was donking around as i suddenly learned how to stack fish XD
Pacific Poker - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 120.5 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 186 BB
MP: 33.5 BB
Hero (CO): 332 BB
BTN: 174.5 BB (Hands: 5 VPIP:80 PFR:0)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♥ 4♥

fold, MP raises to 4 BB, Hero raises to 10 BB, BTN calls 10 BB, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (25.5 BB, 2 players) 4♣ 7♠ 6♠
Hero bets 18.5 BB, BTN calls 18.5 BB

Turn: (62.5 BB, 2 players) A♥
Hero bets 46 BB, BTN raises to 92 BB, Hero raises to 303.5 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 54 BB and is all-in

River: (354.5 BB, 2 players) 4♦

Hero shows J♥ 4♥ (Three of a Kind, Fours)
(Pre 57%, Flop 50%, Turn 68%)
BTN shows 8♦ 9♣ (One Pair, Fours)
(Pre 43%, Flop 50%, Turn 32%)
Hero wins 332.5 BB

they always chase their draws till the bitter end...

Click to expand...

Hi there Haze of Spades, how you doing? Happy holidays for you and your family!
Coming to the point, I have to agree, with all due respect, with Luepso, when he says that you played poorly this hand.
Why? This sad story begins here:

Strange Stories Vol 1:

once upon a time...
fold, MP raises to 4 BB, Hero raises to 10 BB, BTN calls 10 BB, fold, fold, fold


We are in the Cut-Off with Jh4h and we make a very, very weak play, because:

A) It is not even a 3bet size! I understand that Villain is broken stack and most likely to be a huge recreational, but this size is very small. (2.5x). Go for a 3x sizing unless you have specific reasons to do so.

B) Your range is insanely weak when you decide to 3bet here: If we are 3betting J4s x MP, we must assume that we have a large 3betting range versus MP:

77+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, ATo+, KJo+, QJo (23%) or more...

We raise a recreational because we like it to call us out of position with a weaker range. With J4s you are simply dominated by a poor J5s for example.

C) When we have a huge 3bet Preflop such as 12% or more, we are opening doors for exploitation. We are going to suffer a lot of 4bets for value and we will be forced to fold. (unless we are crazy to call 4bets preflop with 20% range).

D) What the hell button called here with? Also a wide range, because your small 3bet sizing screams weakness.

Flop

Flop: (25.5 BB, 2 players) 4♣ 7♠ 6♠
Hero bets 18.5 BB, BTN calls 18.5 BB

Again, if you are betting that high with bottom pair in a drawie, very connected board, you are simply C-Betting everything. Also, your sizing is a tell that doesn't make any sense, because the stronger part of your range is not here for you to C-Bet. Okay you have readings on the player, but like Luepso wisely said, we should not be oriented by results.
To begin with, I am never 3betting this range here. If I have very specific reasons for doing so, I am making a 3bet of 3x size.
When it comes the Flop, I am also not firing a C-Bet here with no odds man. You have no spades, no clubs, no 7x, no 6x, so we will lose in this scenario tons of times, that for when we win, it will not compensate huge ammounts of losses.
I don't wanna see the action in the Turn/River because you already missplayed Preflop and Flop, so everything you do from now on, will not be correct.
Let's us remember that we are here trying to improve our game level. So respect always! It is not a personal comment, it is a professional one. (I am fish but I try my best).
Respect always and gg and gl at the tables!

PS: If the BTN folds, and the MP raisor calls, I see no reason to do whatever you want. However the BTN deep stacked calling changes a lot our picture. And PUT A GIANT note in this BTN player because if you played badly I don't know what to say about the player in the BTN. Completely nonsense the Button play, absurd raising with air at 6-Max 2 NLHE. This BTN friend is your friend, she/he is going to make you rich by playing hands like this. Be careful not to play like him/her. Hugs!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

haha yeah i didn't expect the most positive feedback here but as i said "i was donking around".
this is far from how i actually play poker. i just wanted to try stuff and learn what i can do and what i can't do with players like this one.
i agree J4s is not even close to a 3bet here but i learned that it actually is a good hand against a fish as they often have lower suited cards!
also i agree that i got pretty lucky that bottom pair really was the best hand but i learned that u don't need top pair to stack them. 2nd pair often is more than enough.
i started the whole experiment because i got tired of fish cracking my premium hands with garbage so i figured out i need to go for way thinner value!
by the way i ended this session -2$, was sitting on 750bb at one point and even would win if i didn't get it in with hands like A8o preflop, what i did a few times at the start.
my stats where like (vpip/pfr/3bet) 65/63/60

Haze of Spade said:

i agree J4s is not even close to a 3bet here but i learned that it actually is a good hand against a fish as they often have lower suited cards!

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So because "Fish" how you call them play stupid (ranges) youre gameplan now is to do the same? Interesting.
Ask youreself what makes a fish in the first place... Then look at how you played the hand and compare both what fish would do and how you played the hand.

As I said, what you're experiencing right now is variance nothing else.

Luepso said:

So because "Fish" how you call them play stupid (ranges) youre gameplan now is to do the same? Interesting.
Ask youreself what makes a fish in the first place... Then look at how you played the hand and compare both what fish would do and how you played the hand.

As I said, what you're experiencing right now is variance nothing else.

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i don't wanna offend nobody with the term "fish" but those "special" players i'm talking about are not only stupid preflop but even worse postflop and when i have a huge edge over them i really don't care what hand i hold..
i played the hand how i did because i adjusted to this special player, i would never do this against a reg. and 5 hands where more than enough to see what he's up to.. flatting 4/5 hands and snap-cold-calling my 3bet..
and as i said twice now i think, my gameplan is not to play their ranges, this was an experiment and i just wanted to get in as many hands as possible with this kind of player to try stuff and try understand their thought process.
also nobody stoped me from 3betting with 60% frequency, they even folded to my min-raises often enough because they didn't wanna play against me i guess.

Haze of Spade said:

haha yeah i didn't expect the most positive feedback here but as i said "i was donking around".
this is far from how i actually play poker. i just wanted to try stuff and learn what i can do and what i can't do with players like this one.
i agree J4s is not even close to a 3bet here but i learned that it actually is a good hand against a fish as they often have lower suited cards!
also i agree that i got pretty lucky that bottom pair really was the best hand but i learned that u don't need top pair to stack them. 2nd pair often is more than enough.
i started the whole experiment because i got tired of fish cracking my premium hands with garbage so i figured out i need to go for way thinner value!
by the way i ended this session -2$, was sitting on 750bb at one point and even would win if i didn't get it in with hands like A8o preflop, what i did a few times at the start.
my stats where like (vpip/pfr/3bet) 65/63/60

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Hi there good morning and happy holidays Haze of Spades!
You said yourself my friend " I ended this session -2$, was sitting on 750bb at one point and even would win if i didn't get it in with hands like A8o preflop".
It costs a lot for our winrate to play like fishes. It is not easy at all to be sitting on 750 BB in any Cash Tables, even Play Money tables, believe me.
I am not now calling you a liar, maybe you saw your reasons for so doing, but it seems to everybody that:

A) You were angry, tilted, out of control and decided to do things that you never do when you are calm, easy, focused, playing your "A" game, as we already saw your posts here in the Forum

B) You were bored, annoyed, sleeping and was looking for some adventures in a Cash Table. Well, we cannot play Cash the same way we play SNGs and MTTs.

Don't be proud to recognize your mistakes. Once you find out what it is, do as Luepso told you to do, stay away from the tables as maximum as possible and try to study more, try to find a way to play more easy and make more plus EV decisions in the long run.
Remember, in some point of this session your winrate was godlike. And then you finished having a loss of -100 BB.
If we play, very good in a cash table (2 NLHE), we are going to make 30 BB per hour, multi tabling. I guess there are some goods who can make 50 BB per hour at the micros, but we cannot expect to make huge ammounts of money everytime we seat.
We gotta a lot to learn from ourselves and the way we play.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Youre play was bad, cant be profitable and will never be in the longrun. What you do right now is being defensive.

If you crush you're limit with that mindset please write a book, I'll be the first one to buy it.

I don't have anything to add here. Take the advice or leave it.

Best of luck

Aballinamion said:

Hi there good morning and happy holidays Haze of Spades!
You said yourself my friend " I ended this session -2$, was sitting on 750bb at one point and even would win if i didn't get it in with hands like A8o preflop".
It costs a lot for our winrate to play like fishes. It is not easy at all to be sitting on 750 BB in any Cash Tables, even Play Money tables, believe me.
I am not now calling you a liar, maybe you saw your reasons for so doing, but it seems to everybody that:

A) You were angry, tilted, out of control and decided to do things that you never do when you are calm, easy, focused, playing your "A" game, as we already saw your posts here in the Forum

B) You were bored, annoyed, sleeping and was looking for some adventures in a Cash Table. Well, we cannot play Cash the same way we play SNGs and MTTs.

Don't be proud to recognize your mistakes. Once you find out what it is, do as Luepso told you to do, stay away from the tables as maximum as possible and try to study more, try to find a way to play more easy and make more plus EV decisions in the long run.
Remember, in some point of this session your winrate was godlike. And then you finished having a loss of -100 BB.
If we play, very good in a cash table (2 NLHE), we are going to make 30 BB per hour, multi tabling. I guess there are some goods who can make 50 BB per hour at the micros, but we cannot expect to make huge ammounts of money everytime we seat.
We gotta a lot to learn from ourselves and the way we play.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

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hey Aballinamion happy holidays you too ty!

don't know what's wrong about trying out new stuff at the lowest limit when losing a few buy-ins doesn't hurt my bankroll.
nope i was not tired or tilting, i was just curios what's possible and i did play my A game.
not the ranges i would usually play and not the moves i would usually make but everything i did, i had a reason for it.

and the most important lesson i learned in this session is how to exploit crazy players. and to do this u need to go far away from a gto approach. so if someone tells me i need to play this and that range because he can have this and that hand, i don't really think they know what's up.. i know i can't do this stuff at 5nl because most players will 3bet and 4bet the *** out of me, but if they just don't care i will also open 100% of my hands..

i'm doing well and i have fun playing so i won't take a break that soon.
maybe u guys just never played at 888poker?? it's full of awful players, not to compare with pokerstars..

Luepso said:

Youre play was bad, cant be profitable and will never be in the longrun. What you do right now is being defensive.

If you crush you're limit with that mindset please write a book, I'll be the first one to buy it.

I don't have anything to add here. Take the advice or leave it.

Best of luck

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of course i'm defensive, u called me a fish lol
maybe i write that book and i will dedicate it to you

I think this post is over...

Hey again Haze of Spades, thanks for your advice I will try to play at 888 Poker.
As yourself said, it doesn't make any difference to your bankroll management the way you play and, second, you wanna have fun.
So, you are completely right on what you did. However, players like Luepso and this poor writer here, try to manage a bankroll very seriously this is why we discuss so much, because we don't wanna lose not even 1 Big Blind for nothing. Every blind matters a ton in poker.
Our ends are to have fun as well, but our means differ quite a bit.
Let's remember that we should try always respect others. If this post becomes too much personal, it deviates from its original purpose which is make people learn.
So let's not try to take it to the personal side of things. Respect is the basis for a solid relationship, and that's why we are networking here.
We are looking for people who works and like to share their notions, expertise, experience, theories, methods, ideias, nothing is right or wrong about poker, but any player will see the game in a sui generis mode: that's what makes this game so beautiful, there are infinite possibilities.
Also, infinite goals, objectives in this game. We don't need to mistreat our friends here because their objectives are different from ours. Let's respect always. CardsChat is a network community where we have the privilege of learn with very respectful people.
We gotta try to be kind here, as much as we can not the opposite. Let's be thankful if someone waste its time trying to improve our game, even if the person is wrong.
Ego compromisses our ability to reason and to learn. We should not come here and put our "selves" on the table.
I am not a moralist, I am not a perfect person, but I try to do my best.
If we have nothing to say let's not say it, simple. If we have something to say, let it be about poker. Not about our "selves/ego".
Happy holidays

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

hey i really didn't wanna get personal but i just don't wanna get called a fish because i think i am a competent player and i had the feeling not to be taken seriously.
don't get me wrong i don't wanna waste any bb neither but i think it is important to try out new stuff and be creative in a complex game like poker and not always do what everyone else is doing.
when i said i have fun i meant playing poker is still fun for me (that's why i play). i didn't mean that i'm a fun player who doesn't take the game seriously and just wanna have a good time.
i like the competition and the creativity and i have fun working on my strategy and learn new stuff.
i play 5nl and even some 10nl so losing some stacks at 2 nl is really no problem for me. i am not rich at all so every $ is very important to me but my aim is to get better and if i have to invest some money to do so, why not
worst case scenario is that i grind one more day on my current level.

happy holidays!

It's always such a great feeling to stack them eh?

And that's how I came up with the slogan 'Let's Get Stackin!'

The opponent was just way too stupid , my advice would be not to take this match in consideration because such idiots are very rare(i guess?)

Haze of Spade said:

u don't need top pair to stack them.

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This might be a thing you want to unlearn as soon as possible, yes against some crazy players I'll also get my stack in with TP or less, but playing stacks too often with just TP is in my opinion one of the things that can hurt your winrate most on this Limit in the longrun.

Try to see it from the other side, if you flop a monster, like a set or better, sometimes you wont get paid off, but if you get villains stack then they more often have either an overplayed top pair or two pair than nothing