More aggression?

Hey all,

I appreciate all the helpful information here without being called a "fish" or "donkey."

It seems, to me, over the last month, that *most* low-stakes players play too many hands. They frequently limp, chase, etc. with a lot of cards. I've observed that these types of players do not give proper "respect" to legitimate raises, good play, etc.; the list can go on forever.

Can anyone offer an opinion about how these players should be treated? Let's not focus on my own play, which I know has leaks, but lets just assume that our "hero" plays all the right cards in all the right situations correctly, by the book. Do you think that a tad more agression would drive away these players most of the time? Raising pre-flop 4-5x the BB instead of 3x, betting 3/4 of the pot when you hit hard instead of a standard value of 1/2-2/3, etc. You know, things like that...to show these loose-passive players that you mean business. In short, try to drive them out before they have a chance to suck out. What does it take to tell them that you mean business (when you hit, of course)?

Sometimes, good cards hold up. Sometimes, you get sucked out on because some player decided that his A-7 off or Q-8 suited was good all the way to the river, no matter what your "betting" tells him.

Thanks!

Timmah120 said:

It seems, to me, over the last month, that *most* low-stakes players play too many hands. They frequently limp, chase, etc. with a lot of cards. I've observed that these types of players do not give proper "respect" to legitimate raises, good play, etc.; the list can go on forever.

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This can be both good and bad. It all depends on how you react to it.

Timmah120 said:

Do you think that a tad more agression would drive away these players most of the time?

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You are obviously a thinking player, but still have a ways to go. To take things to the next level, consider two things at all times: 1. what hands can the other player have (you seem to be doing this already, based on the observations which provoked this thread), and 2. what you want them to do.

Your question above, you say you want to drive these players away. Usually that means you're bluffing. If you have a good hand and have them beat, you don't want to drive them away (providing you are giving them bad odds to draw).

Raising pre-flop 4-5x the BB instead of 3x, betting 3/4 of the pot when you hit hard instead of a standard value of 1/2-2/3, etc. You know, things like that...to show these loose-passive players that you mean business. In short, try to drive them out before they have a chance to suck out. What does it take to tell them that you mean business (when you hit, of course)?

Sometimes, good cards hold up. Sometimes, you get sucked out on because some player decided that his A-7 off or Q-8 suited was good all the way to the river, no matter what your "betting" tells him.

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You are thinking short term. Maybe the money means too much to you and you should move down in stakes for now. You are contradicting yourself. When you hit, why would you want to drive them out? Its likely you have the best hand. If you have AK and comes A high, I would bet as much as I can, as long as I could keep them in the hand. Since your read is that they play so many hands, I want them to stay in with A7. If I can get 3 streets of value, I'm going to try to do it. If the random 7 comes and they hit two pair, so be it. If they are very passive, and all of a sudden they raise the river when the 7 hits, maybe I can fold and not pay them off, since they are calling stations and so rarely ever raise.

Try to really understand this, it will really help your game.

I like your statements, thank you.

I think I just get too frusterated when I do have a strong hand and they outdraw me. I am playing at limits within 5% of my roll, so I can't drop too much, but I will take your advice and see what happens.

I want to drive them out so they don't suck out on me. Maybe I am just not seeing the big picture, focusing on all the times the villian does suck out and not enough on the times when they miss. It just *seems* that bad play is being rewarded.

I don't usually try to bluff...I usually have a legit hand. I will bluff the guy who is extremely tight...

Thanks again.

Timmah120 said:

I think I just get too frusterated when I do have a strong hand and they outdraw me.

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Poker is tough like that. You need to be able to draw satisfaction from knowing you did the right thing and they made a mistake. Bad luck is just bad luck.

I play at the micros and my standard raise here is 4bb. When I hit on the flop I bet more than the pot, not 2/3 of the pot. Especially with 2 suited cards on the board. The idea is to never give them draw odds for the flush or other hands.

Often they will call anyway, and no matter what happens after that, you know they are a worse player than you, and you will get their money eventually.

identify loose, passive, tight, aggressive players etc.
put each on a 'range' of hands.
obviously loose players have a wider range than tight players.
this means you will play your hand differently depending
who you are in the hand with, and what range you have put them on.
this is easier said than done, so you have to constantly think
about it and adjust to each players range accordingly.
trust your reads till you are proved differently.
i hope this makes sense , i just woke up.
good luck.

Timmah120 said:

Maybe I am just not seeing the big picture, focusing on all the times the villian does suck out and not enough on the times when they miss. It just *seems* that bad play is being rewarded.

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This is iit exactly. In the long run you will win more by playing correctly than they will win by sucking out. Its hard to recognize that in the middle of a tough session but the long run is the key. As someone else said, you don't want to drive them away when you are a huge favorite but you have to understand that even if you are an 80% favorite the opponent will still get his 20%.

Good luck.

gregnice said:

Your question above, you say you want to drive these players away. Usually that means you're bluffing. If you have a good hand and have them beat, you don't want to drive them away (providing you are giving them bad odds to draw).

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This. If you have a good hand bet hard because you think they'll call, not because you want them out of the pot

I saw if you just go with your gut you will be right about 90 percent of the time...if you feel you need to bet big do it......but my brother gave me a tip...if flop a say trips or two pair...and there flush and straight draws out there bet dont give him the odds to chase if thats what you putting him on....if that card comes up just fold, it was hime that made bad calls

Timmah120 said:

I like your statements, thank you.

I think I just get too frusterated when I do have a strong hand and they outdraw me. I am playing at limits within 5% of my roll, so I can't drop too much, but I will take your advice and see what happens.

I want to drive them out so they don't suck out on me. Maybe I am just not seeing the big picture, focusing on all the times the villian does suck out and not enough on the times when they miss. It just *seems* that bad play is being rewarded.

I don't usually try to bluff...I usually have a legit hand. I will bluff the guy who is extremely tight...

Thanks again.

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i have/had same problem myself i hate it when people get rewarded for making horrible plays, and it always makes me feel like i should do something different to get them out of the hand so i at least win some money, but what everyone is saying for the most part is correct imo.
One more thing is you should prob move down to 1% or 2% of your bankroll that seems to be pretty standard from my understanding.

CistaCista said:

Poker is tough like that. You need to be able to draw satisfaction from knowing you did the right thing and they made a mistake. Bad luck is just bad luck.

I play at the micros and my standard raise here is 4bb. When I hit on the flop I bet more than the pot, not 2/3 of the pot. Especially with 2 suited cards on the board. The idea is to never give them draw odds for the flush or other hands.

Often they will call anyway, and no matter what happens after that, you know they are a worse player than you, and you will get their money eventually.

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i feel like you may want to consider lowering your post flop raises, betting this large seems like it would be pushing away otherwise would be callers and losing a bit of cash in the process.

Nikeballa07 said:

i feel like you may want to consider lowering your post flop raises, betting this large seems like it would be pushing away otherwise would be callers and losing a bit of cash in the process.

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My plan is to lower raise and bet sizes when I get to 5NL or 10NL. I think that is what people have generally been recommending?

But there is maybe something fundamental I lack in understanding.
Let's say a person has a 35 % chance of hitting a flush on either the turn or river. And you are saying that it will be to my advantage to give him odds that are better than that (by making a bet that is lower than pot size)? And then adjust my bet when I see the turn card?
I am not sure I can handle that lol.

CistaCista said:

My plan is to lower raise and bet sizes when I get to 5NL or 10NL. I think that is what people have generally been recommending?

But there is maybe something fundamental I lack in understanding.
Let's say a person has a 35 % chance of hitting a flush on either the turn or river. And you are saying that it will be to my advantage to give him odds that are better than that (by making a bet that is lower than pot size)? And then adjust my bet when I see the turn card?
I am not sure I can handle that lol.

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Your bet sizing needs to be appropriate to the hand that you are playing not whether or not you are playing 5nl or 10nl or whatever. You never want to give opponents the correct odds to draw to their hand (unless you hold the absolute nuts). You should bet enough that if they call they are making a long term mistake even if, in this particular instance, they make their hand.

Betting should basically never be done to "Drive them out." You should bet to get value from worse hands or to make better hands fold (perhaps more accurately, to get someone to fold their equity, or to realize your own equity by inducing specific actions from opponents).

alaskabill said:

You never want to give opponents the correct odds to draw to their hand (unless you hold the absolute nuts).

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Yes that's what I am doing. I am betting more than pot size because villain has typically 30-35% chance when seeing the flop. I am forcing him to lay down 40% of the pot on the flop.

But the poster above said I should lower my bets - that would mean the villain only lays down 20-25% of pot when he has 30-35% odds.

play mostly strong starting hands , hardly ever bluff , and value bet them to death , I like to bets abit bigger also in the early stages of the small buy in torneys , this is where all the fish think they have alot of chips so they can splash them around . If i think I can get a few callers with AA i will raise 5-10 bb , and belive me I get at least one and sometimes 3-4 callers regurally. later in the torney , near the final table I open up alittle with the range and lower pre flop raise 2.5-3 this is where all of a sudden most of these players go into a shell and play what they think are playable hands , important to have position here as these players become very predictible and usualy will bet when they hit and check when they miss.
hope this helps

I been playing 1,2 nl live at parx casino lately but it prolly plays like micros online. I make most of money by hitiing a hand and value betting the hell out of the weak players. I think that's how u make most ur money. If they r on a draw make em pay for it. And a play I like to use if they have position on me is maybe check the river and let them bluff at u so u can get an extra bet out of em. If u don't think they r on a draw then obviously just value bet river. Good value bets is the key in the lower stakes games in my opinion.

RdotJdot said:

I been playing 1,2 nl live at parx casino lately but it prolly plays like micros online. I make most of money by hitiing a hand and value betting the hell out of the weak players. I think that's how u make most ur money. If they r on a draw make em pay for it. And a play I like to use if they have position on me is maybe check the river and let them bluff at u so u can get an extra bet out of em. If u don't think they r on a draw then obviously just value bet river. Good value bets is the key in the lower stakes games in my opinion.

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QFT! Haven't played any live to speak of but this exactly ^^^ will beat at least the lowest micros online.

am new here

i need more directives