HIGH STAKES PLAYERS completing from the small blind?!

One thing I've noticed that is only ever done by very bad players (passive fish) and very good players (high stakes regs) is completing from the small blind.

I never see average or decent regs complete from the small blind. I'm a 10NL reg and I never complete from the small blind. I will either raise or fold preflop. I never open limp. The same goes for most micro stakes and small stakes regs. They never complete from the small blind because they see it as fishy, weak and unnecessary.

And yet I see so many high stakes regs do exactly this! I've been watching some $25/$50 cash games and I'll see top players like OTB_RedBaron completing from the small blind. I've also seen Jason Somerville complete from the small blind at 1000NL during his "Run It Up" series.

Why do so many high stakes players complete from the small blind? I'm talking about very strong, professional poker players at 1000NL+. These are definitely NOT fish. What is their logic for completing from the small blind?

GTO and balance and the ability to play near perfect post flop poker.

I really doubt any micro/mid stake grinders on CC can really answer why high stake regs complete their SB though.

Simple: you can't win it if you ain't in it.

Source: I won a few hands at 2nl when I completed my SB.

lmao

I'm starting to get this feeling... there doesn't seem to be too many strong cash game players on CC. Like there just aren't enough 50NL+ players around that have a good understanding of GTO and can answer these kind of questions. There are a few helpful players around (like you, Minh, John, Tim, marginal and a few others) that give good advice for micro stakes players, but the information gets very limited for higher stakes like 50NL+ on Stars.

I'm tempted to make an account on 2p2. I just feel that as I get better at the game and start to ask more advanced poker strategy questions, there are fewer and fewer players on CC that can help me. If my goal is to reach 100NL by the end of next year, then I feel that I need to be surrounded by strong players with a solid understanding of the game. I'm not going to improve significantly if the players I'm seeking advice from are only slightly better than me.

I'm not saying that I'm going to quit CC permanently. I'll still spend a lot of time on CC, especially if the people on 2p2 are arrogant and unhelpful (as I have heard from some CC players). But I will at least give 2p2 a shot and see what the quality of information is like there.

It's not a bad site, I just like the smaller community we have here. I feel like the only advice I get on 2p2 is "meh call".

I mean are you playing high stakes or... I can tell you now, I'm not a high stakes player, but the strategies used by the pros in 1000nl simply will not work in 100nl or lower because the opponents are not thinking on the same level.

I think if you really want to know what Jason Somerville's logic is for any thing he does, you'll probably have to ask him yourself.

John crushes 200NL and is a professional coach, so I'm pretty sure he's going to be more than just "helpful for micro stakes players".
Having said that, as long as you're not playing 50NL+ yourself, does it really matter that you still have some GTO areas to improve in?
I mean, it's good that you're looking into this, and it'll help your general play, but as long as it's hardly ever applicable to the stakes you play, it's not going to be vital...


As for 2+2, the larger the subforum, the more likely it is that you'll only be met with snark. A mid-stakes or high-stakes subforum is probably going to be better.
Just took a look at their forums, and either it's a fluke, or they've managed to turn people off with the sarcasm, because it looks like those forums aren't as insanely active as they used to be...

Many high level player probably just dont want to share their strategical reasons.
Real reason to play so can be to see flop relatively cheap if yhey dont have something good for raising.

Since 3-betting from the SB (against a steal attempt) almost seems to be compulsory with any kind of a playable hand at the micro (10NL) level, I wonder if it might just be more profitable in the long run to complete? I don't generally steal without something, and I always call a 3-bet from a moderately aggressive player in the SB. That leaves me in position (i.e., with an edge) with a hand which is probably as good as the SB defender, and a whole lot more freedom to choose on the flop. Seems reasonable that very good (high-stakes) players might see it that way too.

Kind of agree. There are very few players here who play low-stakes online. I learned a ton about ranges/hand reading from reading 2+2 low-stakes. But even then, some of the posts are bad too. The posters are sometimes annoyingly arrogant and sarcastic too, and a lot of times they are just like "meh, call." There isn't much discussion at medium-stakes and especially high-stakes, so I think you're on your own if you get there.

GTO probably not as important as you think until medium/high-stakes, and even the 2+2 community isn't going to be that well-versed in it below those stakes. But you will learn a lot on 2+2. What's much more important is applying ranges well, bluff-catching, and value betting well. If you do all these really well, you could definitely beat medium-stakes. GTO is probably only really beneficial for high stakes; a basic understanding/application of it should be more than fine for low-stakes against regs. Just understanding it alone and being able to apply it at times will help your game/winrate overall, and help you think on a deeper level in-game.


Obviously, we want to play exploitable against fish, e.g. value betting hard against calling stations. GTO is not as profitable as exploitative play against certain player types. An extreme example, but no "I need to strengthen my checking-calling range against this 80/0 fish who calls with any piece of the board or I will be extremely exploitable." Tbh, the whole "I will be exploitable" excuse is overused. Why would you ever bluff-catch in a spot where 95% of the population is never bluffing? They'll say something ridiculous like, "but if you fold here near the top of your range, villain can jam with ATC and show a profit."

Pros are on a totally different level. We probably can't answer why they do it, but unless you have a really good reason to do so, don't do it.

Btw, how did you change your CC name?

They are making a big mistake here. I'm a 10NL reg, and I complete out of the SB. You're getting a "discount" for your call, so you can play some speculative hands. It's especially nice to bink, and get paid off. Auto conceding your SB is just letting money leak away. You also have to prevent others from thinking they have a chance to steal from the button or CO when you're in the SB. A thief will expect a 3! from you, and he could 4! without much, but you're in a very awkward position post where you have no idea where you stand. By calling, you keep your range wide and undefined. Now it's the thief who has to do the worrying.

A lot of these small stakes players are too afraid of post-flop play, therefore the raise or muck philosophy. I'm not afraid to play post, and I know I can outplay the vast majority of the field. Anyone who can play 1000NL also isn't afraid to play post either, otherwise, they wouldn't've gotten there in the first place.

You have to have confidence in your post-flop play. If you don't, then maybe it's for the best to not ever complete. However, that leads to all sorts of other errors like FoF play that someone like me recognizes, and I'll rob you over and over again, even across multiple sessions. That's yet another reason to complete from the SB: you check the flop, and Mr Fiterfold checks, you pick it up with a lead on the turn. He's already told you he has nothing, and unless the turn card makes him something, he's outtadere!

As for open limping, I seldom ever do this (at NL, FL is a whole 'nother story) but there are occasions where this will help accomplish your objective.

Yahtzeee, I +from the SB occasionally to advance my range from SB area. Ive completed with more 56s+ with the risk and reward mentally, but as OP stated earlier, you must be careful, as micro/low stakes players will not respect the COMPLETE and call down light and bust u hard only because they are not thinking of a level we may be at

Strategies at the high stakes are fun to watch but are highly situational and difficult to apply. They are like a Ferarri. A tool of precision and speed in the hands of a professional but an accident waiting to happen in the hands of the average human.

There are a few reasons why they do it.

The aggressive nature of their game. At higher limits the odds of getting 3 bet by the big blind is fairly high. That means when you open hands like Ax that plays well HU, you're then being put in a tough spot when you get 3 bet. You now have a smaller SPR that means initiative is more important in the hand. Whether we 4 bet or call, we're in a rough spot. The BB can very profitably 3 bet a range of hands such as QJ or Kxs and turn an instant profit against an opponent of similar skill because of position and initiative. Using aggression from the SB to 4 bet lets the BB flat you in a inflated pot and play nearly perfectly against you post flop.

Limping the SB allows you to realise the equity of your hand (props to marg for this point) I.e youre getting a great price to call. Normally this is a sign of weakness, but with a balanced range that image changes. The light 3 bet hands for the BB now become a check because they have far less Fold equity when they raise and it's much easier for the SB to 3 bet than to 4 bet. Especially because they now get to be the player that jams over a 4 bet (assuming 100bb stacks). When the BB checks their option, the pot is kept smaller oop for us and nobody has initiative but we get the first chance to take it without the image that comes with donking the flop.

I'm sure there's more to it than this. I do not recommend anyone doing this at the micros. Raise or fold from the SB when it's folded to you is best until you understand why it's not.

I think they are completing from the small blind because they don't feel like playing inflated pots OOP blind vs blind. I remember negreanu saying that in a tournament format at least...

people tend to complete from the sb because they dont want fish to fold pre... keep the weak players in who get sticky with 2nd best hands or keep the tags with marginal openening hands who will fold to 3bets.

Couple of reasons and I really don't want to expand on this cause it's not as useful to you guys if your playing 2'nl etc

1) the game is moving to more post flop play and you should try to outplay post instead of pre
2) the price is good to peel and see flops with decent equity against a bb range. 3/1 price means you can see flops with very marginal holdings
3) if villain is competent you get 3 bet a lot and unless you want to play street and counter by 4 betting a lot which in itself is a nightmare, it makes more sense to limp
4) OOP



From a mid stakes and high stakes perspective this makes all the sense in the world but at your micros you can just bash so it's less necessary since you know people are gonna play pretty straight forward

Also what I forgot to say is you don't need GTO for micros cause you can play more profitably playing a game that's slightly exploitable because you know the competition is not going to exploit it so there is less need for optimal unexploitable lines.

IMHO:
1. fish will not fold as it's cheap pot to look at the flop:
with maybe good odds but hard to get money from if you hit your monster flush or something of that sort, but if you donty get there it's easy to exploit you
2. good players will not complete:
you are in a bad possition if you complete with an iffy hand
(lets say you completed with J8o and pot has 2 limpers, BB checks. Flops goest J2K rainbow... are you good? are you behind? is it worth betting with a second pair is it worh folding Об and what if you get check-aised on the turn... this stuff)
2.1 good players will complete:
varying their range. from what I've seen on nl1k+ players tend to not bad not as good as me, but still not bad =) and playng ABC might put you in a spot easy to exploit.
you raise strong-they fold; you check=you have a dro or a 2d or 3d pair... this stuff

I don't know what you are talking about at all

I think when it reaches this level of the game and limit, everything changes. Come into play many other variables that don't exist at the lower limits.

Already in the lower limits have many bad players, so the basic poker is more profitable, so regs always come to raise and pressing it is the most lucrative way to make money on a fish that only pay to see the flop.

You can't make comparisons. It's another game