Best Play style in micros?

Hi, i have fairly recently started playing cash games because of take two, and as i have progressed i have basically completely changed my play style, i started out very nitty, playing about 10% of hands, and fairly agressive after the flop, but what i had kind of already knew (which is why i played sngs) was quickly realised, that i was definately a losing player like this, i think my reads were a bit off, but it seemed i was only ever getting called down by very strong hands, or draws when they have no pot odds to be there, and by the time the draw hits my 2 pair or set is basically committed anyway (i have a very short roll playing short stack .01/.02) and people were generally folding without a hand.

So after a while reviewing this i realised that my ABC poker either sucked, or didnt work very well at all in micro. My friend showed me a strategy he had been trying where he basically played almost anytwo in good positions, and basically exploiting the mainly tight play in the micros. Most guides say that micro players are loose, and donks but i have found that they are all generally tight, and very rarely get out of line.

I have adjusted what he showed me a little bit, a little tighter, and threw some other moves in, but for me this is working quite well, and i feel like i have good control at the table, it also leads me to quite quickly have good reads on other players, as i see them play quite alot.

This leads me to wonder a few things, like what type of strategy do you like, and the fact that is it really worth mass multitabling like this, when i can have much more fun, much better ROI playing just a couple of tables where i am playing this style. I am pretty sure the style is probably typical LAG play but i have not seen it at the tables much, so it feels different (at least for micro stakes) there are definately loose players, but they seem to love limping rather then making plays at the pot.

What do you guys believe the best, most profitable, enjoyable play is in the micros? And if anyone could offer suggestions as to whether i should actually go back to my losing TAG play, (and help me find the leaks in that)

check out the golden archives. This thread in particular may be helpful: https://www.cardschat.com/f49/how-beat-nl-10-isnt-book-90173/

sorry i didnt really show what i meant, but going around here it seems that people think the only way to win is solid TAG play, but i was losing like that (yes it was a horribly small sample) and i feel like i am winning like this, and i feel like i am in control of the table, and i think that i can win more money like this then i could with TAG, so i dont quite understand why everyone is against LAG, and why people think the 2nl games are so loose, cause i really dont see it that way, they are probably a bit looser in the terms of seeing flop, people love to limp, but they are much more scared to raise it, so most people think that everyone is only raising with hands, and i am getting alot of bluffs working, more then iwould have expected.

So basically i am wondering where this whole mentality comes from?

imwatcher said:

So basically i am wondering where this whole mentality comes from?

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Years of experience and 100s of thousands of hands.

Why not report back in a few months when you understand just how small your sample really is?

Will do, but getting to 5$ with only 1 showdown cant be all luck. (with an 80c buy in on ss) and my friend has got to over 5 dollars multiple times, getting to almost 9 once without risking the stack more then twice, and even then we arent risking our whole stack because we have more chips then the others because of out stealing. what seemed to happen time after time with TAG was i would win a couple of hands just preflop with a raise, or a 3-bet or on my bet on the flop then i would lose it all from a suckout, or sometimes double and THEN lose it all from a suckout, this way avoids the amount of showdowns needed to win..

Would you please define what you think of as TAG?

Ok why or you asking if you got it all figured out already?

play any pocket pair if its a cheap flop, other than that play premium hands like AQ+ A2s+ (give up if much aggression on an ace flop with a bad kicker) on the button occasionally play hands like 78s if you see people are getting committed with 1 pair etc. raise it up when you have a big hand basically..

imwatcher said:

play any pocket pair if its a cheap flop, other than that play premium hands like AQ+ A2s+ (give up if much aggression on an ace flop with a bad kicker) on the button occasionally play hands like 78s if you see people are getting committed with 1 pair etc. raise it up when you have a big hand basically..

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A2s+ is not tag

and im sure hillbilly will disagree with playing pocket pairs haha but ill let him tell you why thats not always a good idea

oh i have tried both, when i first started i played 1010+ A10s+ AQ+ and that was all, i lost like that as well.. i was losing less when playing a bit wider because i was stealing more to make up for my losses

One of my favourite moves is to limp in early position with 56s or 67s and then reraise if there is a smallish raise, moves like this have made me alot, and it means that even if i get AA in early position i am much more likely to see action, especially if my hand gets showdown because i hit with it..

imwatcher said:

play any pocket pair if its a cheap flop, other than that play premium hands like AQ+ A2s+ (give up if much aggression on an ace flop with a bad kicker) on the button occasionally play hands like 78s if you see people are getting committed with 1 pair etc. raise it up when you have a big hand basically..

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Are you playing 6-max or FR?

fr, when i was playing A2s+ it was in good position and i would basically give up without a decent draw

imwatcher said:

sorry i didnt really show what i meant, but going around here it seems that people think the only way to win is solid TAG play, but i was losing like that (yes it was a horribly small sample) and i feel like i am winning like this, and i feel like i am in control of the table, and i think that i can win more money like this then i could with TAG, so i dont quite understand why everyone is against LAG, and why people think the 2nl games are so loose, cause i really dont see it that way, they are probably a bit looser in the terms of seeing flop, people love to limp, but they are much more scared to raise it, so most people think that everyone is only raising with hands, and i am getting alot of bluffs working, more then iwould have expected.

So basically i am wondering where this whole mentality comes from?

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Then you probably weren't playing TAG. Do you use tracking software? If so could you post your stats so we could analyze them?

LAG can definitely be a profitable strategy, however it requires very very good post-flop skills. Most players at 2NL aren't playing LAG, they're just loose and weak.

Over how large of a sample have you implemented your "LAG" strategy? Not trying to be confrontational or condescending, I just highly doubt you've had long term success, i.e. 50k+ hands using a more LAG strategy and haven't been able to get above 2NL.

imwatcher said:

oh i have tried both, when i first started i played 1010+ A10s+ AQ+ and that was all, i lost like that as well.. i was losing less when playing a bit wider because i was stealing more to make up for my losses

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this isn't playing TAG... I know it's going to seem really tacky, but I'm going to quote myself, because I gave a response to "what is TAG" like an hour ago, lol.

cjatud2012 said:

TAG players will almost always raise when they want to play, not calling many raises, especially from the blinds. The only exception would be good implied odds hands in multi-way pots, when they have position. They will play very tight from early position, and raise wide from the BTN and CO. TAG's also are aware of their opponents and table selection, they will look to sit with the weak-tight players on their left so they can blind steal, and with the fish on their right, so they can value bet the hell out of them when they have position.

TAG is about so much more than playing good cards, I'm not saying that's all you were doing, but it helps to be reminded so that you can be very conscious of your decisions at the poker table...

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Your description of your previous play sound very passive. Cheap flops, suited Aces, only raising with a big hand.

I have no doubt that your current style works better than your previous because you've upped your aggression and that is the key to winning. What I think you'll find over time though is that at micro stakes you're going to want to tighten up your current range and keep the aggression.

Okay so i decided to play some TAG today, and about 1800 hands later im 2 dollars up which is quite nice, i think im going to alternate every 2 days or so and try and find which style i prefer.. i was about 5 dollars up but i lost 5 showdowns in a row to finish the day AK to QQ twice KK to AQ and AK, and AQ to JA

imwatcher said:

Okay so i decided to play some TAG today, and about 1800 hands later im 2 dollars up which is quite nice, i think im going to alternate every 2 days or so and try and find which style i prefer.. i was about 5 dollars up but i lost 5 showdowns in a row to finish the day AK to QQ twice KK to AQ and AK, and AQ to JA

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TAG stands for Tight Aggrssive.

Tight means you are selective in the cards you play, depending on your position at the table, opponents in the pot, pot size,etc. This means when you are Out of position and there aggressive opponents to your left that you only play the very best hands (AA KK QQ JJ, AK,etc.) and that you loosen up as you approach the button. Some players think Tight means only playing pocket pairs, broadway cards and suited connectors. That is very loose. That range would be over 20% of all hands which would be fine from the button but horrible from early position. Playing dominated hands Out of position like AQ KQ KJ etc. will send you to the poorhouse.

Aggressive means you mainly bet or raise and rarely call. Checking usually means you will fold to a bet but under certain circumstances you will check/ raise. Check/ calling is generally a bad idea except when you hold the nuts. (i.e., you hold AK and the flop comes down AAK. No sense betting here someone without an Ace or King will not likely call your bet).

A big part of this strategy is folding, folding, folding. If a decent player in with 100 bb in Early position raises and your stack is also 100 bb and you have AJo the correct move under most circumstances would be to fold. Why? Because if you flop an Ace and you run into AA AK AQ you will get stacked and if you flop the J as top pair you are behind AA KK QQ JJ.

This strategy will make you money but you have to be patient and disciplined.

Thank you for the advice, that is basically how i was playing anyway, im not sure how it really related to the post you quoted though?

imwatcher said:

Thank you for the advice, that is basically how i was playing anyway, im not sure how it really related to the post you quoted though?

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Sounds a little like your mind is closed. I absolutely stunk as a cash game player until I OPENED MY MIND. While I'm still not making millions LMAO I do feel like I am miles from where I was. I try to read as many posts in this section as I can, post as much as I can, and take something from everything one that I read. Just know that nothing will work overnight. If your looking for a quick fix your not at the right place. But there are alot of great players here. The great thing is you don't have to agree with everyone here but you can still see a different POV and even that will improve your game. GL on your quest. I hope you succeed.

I dont understand why you think my mind is closed :S i have said i was trying LAGGY out and it was working, then everyone said TAG is better so i tried to go back to TAG and i did an update of how it went (quite well) and i thanked the persoon for the good advice i just said that was how i had played that session anyway, i am confused as what you mean?

PNJs_dad said:

Sounds a little like your mind is closed. I absolutely stunk as a cash game player until I OPENED MY MIND. While I'm still not making millions LMAO I do feel like I am miles from where I was. I try to read as many posts in this section as I can, post as much as I can, and take something from everything one that I read. Just know that nothing will work overnight. If your looking for a quick fix your not at the right place. But there are alot of great players here. The great thing is you don't have to agree with everyone here but you can still see a different POV and even that will improve your game. GL on your quest. I hope you succeed.

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Just some of your posts seem like you believe you've figured it out. When you post stuff like "but getting to 5$ with only 1 showdown cant be all luck" and "that is basically how i was playing anyway" just sounds like you've already made your mind up. Which is fine....it's yours to make up.

Yes i was just saying the 5 dollar with 1 showdown because i think that the biggest weakness is the amount of showdowns which you end up having with TAG, i know a lot of the time you bet the other person off, but when you reraise them with JJ preflop on the button and they shove the extra 20c you are going to call.. that was how i was playing, im not really sure what i could have said... i suppose i didnt need to say that i should have just thanked for the advice, as it was excellent advice.

I have been trying to understand the taboo against LAG play (or what seems to be a taboo) and i am not exactly sure why everyone believes it is losing play at the micros, i understand they have far more experience than me, which is why i am going to do 2 days where i play TAG and 2 days wheree i play LAG and review the sessions in poker tracker and see what seems to be working better... in my opinion that seems quite open minded to me..

I used to love buying in cheap and playing to the double and tripleup point. The thing I noticed following my favorite penny player was he would play lots of hands. Rarely pushing preflop, limping in most of the time. However when He bet it was allways trips or better.

There is allways a big bunch of players so anyone keeping stats will have a limited history on you. Not to bad for a bare bones strategy.