Balancing opening ranges – flush specific

stately7

stately7

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So I have this question…

When playing a TAG full-ring cash game, (say live, after limpers, but could be online) I am occasionally raising hands like 98s or 86s to balance my superior raising range, helping my genuine bigger hands to get action, otherwise I can look like and turn into a rock. Of c in position w/these hands, I’m sometimes calling limpers or a raise / though more often folding to a raise.

But my query is: if I am the opener, raising with 98s and I’m called, do we think it’s profitable to continue on flush boards and – say hit our flush on turn or river? Or do villains’ calling ranges too often easily include hands like KQs or Q10s or A7s of the same suit? Obv making straights is less of an issue. Perhaps the open itself is misguided. It’s mostly worked out pretty well, but I’ve seen other folks get stung here, however I think this was mostly in tournament situations, not cash. Sorry if the question is a bit convoluted :stupid:
 
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adepoker11

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regularly at tables to play more hands, and you can have good results, it is different in a tournament those hands have to dispose of them and play hard, in my opinion
Best regards
 
stately7

stately7

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I think you're saying especially in tournaments, and especially in later stages when not deep, those hands must be folded preflop - and I agree.
 
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hffjd2000

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Yes its profitable. Two points here, you can get the pot if the villain doesnt hit anything. Second, youre applying the so called semibluff. At live, seldom both of you having same suit.
 
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jj20002

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in a mtt with a big stack it´s profitable to play them in late position in a multiway hand otherwise this hole cards are going to diminish your stack too fast if playing against one villain and with no position
 
pocketehs

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are you asking if we should bet our flush draws?
 
stately7

stately7

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are you asking if we should bet our flush draws?

Not so much that, more wondering whether we are generally going to show profit often enough when we make a flush given calling ranges for mid SCs include higher SCs of the same suit.
 
stately7

stately7

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Yes its profitable. Two points here, you can get the pot if the villain doesnt hit anything. Second, youre applying the so called semibluff. At live, seldom both of you having same suit.

Yeah, this is a overall good argument for balancing opening ranges with 98s I guess, given Cbets against one villain in particular are going to take down the pot a reasonable amount of the time.

When we make a flush, this "seldom having the same suit" is what I'm not sure about, maybe I'm paranoid, but it's not so super rare as I see it. Although I suppose we should be able to sense and range villain for a better flush depending on his reaction to our bets / the board.
 
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hffjd2000

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Yeah, this is a overall good argument for balancing opening ranges with 98s I guess, given Cbets against one villain in particular are going to take down the pot a reasonable amount of the time.

When we make a flush, this "seldom having the same suit" is what I'm not sure about, maybe I'm paranoid, but it's not so super rare as I see it. Although I suppose we should be able to sense and range villain for a better flush depending on his reaction to our bets / the board.

The person was saying he had seen many loses for both being on the same suit. I think he was referring to online poker. In my statement and I quote " At live, seldom both having the same suit". Im referring at live or brick and mortar table and not online games.
 
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erlanditas

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with flush draw or straight draw too, u can check 3BET the oponent on flop, then he can pass away Like Ax
 
Mr Sandbag

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NL200, so entry level ;)

If your local 200NL player pool is at all similar to mine, you're playing against terrible opponents most of the time.

That being said, I've found that balancing your range at 1/2 live is pretty inconsequential. The reg fish that play see their two cards, the board, and nothing else. An opponent's range doesn't cross their minds.

In the past few months, I've worked hard at trying to eliminate a good portion of limping from my game. But just recently I started to re-incorporate it a little. Why? Because 1/2 players don't exploit it, which makes for great implied odds.

So when you discuss raising SC's from late position, why are you doing it? Honestly, I'd rather not go heads up with a hand that works better in a multiway pot. Instead of playing against one player who will fold most of the time to my cbet, I'd rather play a limped pot against five fish who call too much and stack off lightly.

Now, if you are at a loose table and there are a lot of limpers to you, raising may actually be a really good idea if you are confident that you'll get several callers. The pot will be bloated and stacks get committed faster when you do smash the flop.

Just my opinion!
 
stately7

stately7

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If your local 200NL player pool is at all similar to mine, you're playing against terrible opponents most of the time.

That being said, I've found that balancing your range at 1/2 live is pretty inconsequential. The reg fish that play see their two cards, the board, and nothing else. An opponent's range doesn't cross their minds.

In the past few months, I've worked hard at trying to eliminate a good portion of limping from my game. But just recently I started to re-incorporate it a little. Why? Because 1/2 players don't exploit it, which makes for great implied odds.

So when you discuss raising SC's from late position, why are you doing it? Honestly, I'd rather not go heads up with a hand that works better in a multiway pot. Instead of playing against one player who will fold most of the time to my cbet, I'd rather play a limped pot against five fish who call too much and stack off lightly.

Now, if you are at a loose table and there are a lot of limpers to you, raising may actually be a really good idea if you are confident that you'll get several callers. The pot will be bloated and stacks get committed faster when you do smash the flop.

Just my opinion!

Interesting Sand, as to the possible why raise – I recently read about how raising after limpers with hands like 98s in position can be a good strategy for creating a big pot against specifically weak-tight opponents who will regularly fold to big bets OTT or river. So that's quite situational.

But you’re right, I do think the play is generally not great against live 200NL calling stations. (Maybe it works better at 500NL and 1000NL? I’ll tell you if and when…lol.) I’ve also eliminated most limping live too, but your explanation of limping along sometimes with decently speculative hands which can flop well sounds OK, I’ve been doing this a little too, even if it does feel pretty passive doing so – but it can work out both inexpensive preflop and very profitable on the right boards against the right stack-off monkeys.

But limp or raise, I’m still not 100% certain about longer term success at 200NL in terms of running into bigger flushes with these medium SCs.

BTW, will you ever raise big preflop after loose limpers using hands with poor implied odds that don’t flop well, like K2s and A5o? I haven’t been but I do wonder if/when I should.
 
Mr Sandbag

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Interesting Sand, as to the possible why raise – I recently read about how raising after limpers with hands like 98s in position can be a good strategy for creating a big pot against specifically weak-tight opponents who will regularly fold to big bets OTT or river. So that's quite situational.

But you’re right, I do think the play is generally not great against live 200NL calling stations. (Maybe it works better at 500NL and 1000NL? I’ll tell you if and when…lol.) I’ve also eliminated most limping live too, but your explanation of limping along sometimes with decently speculative hands which can flop well sounds OK, I’ve been doing this a little too, even if it does feel pretty passive doing so – but it can work out both inexpensive preflop and very profitable on the right boards against the right stack-off monkeys.

But limp or raise, I’m still not 100% certain about longer term success at 200NL in terms of running into bigger flushes with these medium SCs.

BTW, will you ever raise big preflop after loose limpers using hands with poor implied odds that don’t flop well, like K2s and A5o? I haven’t been but I do wonder if/when I should.

Yeah limping just feels wrong sometimes lol. Limping is bad because of how easily it can be exploited, but how often is it exploited by 1/2 fish? Almost never. Not only that, but you may actually be exploiting them by seeing flops in multiway pots with speculative hands.

About running into larger flushes - that's entirely dependent on your postflop skills. If you aren't strong enough to lay down a smaller flush when a passive fish is suddenly getting aggressive, you may want to stick to "ABC" TAG poker. I'm not saying you are or aren't strong enough, but if you do happen to find yourself losing big pots to larger flushes in these situations, you may want to re-evaluate things. Also, at 1/2, most of the fish are scared to death of three-flush boards, so if you have a flush (even the nut flush) on a paired board, you better really analyze things when you're facing a raise. I actually laid down a King-high flush today on a 6-6-2-7-A board when my opponent min-raised my half-pot bet on the river. The guy was so tight and bluffed literally 0% of the time. He showed quad 6's when I mucked.

I'm not sure there is much to be said for raising hands like K2o or A5o unless you have a dead read on everyone at the table. You'll just find yourself in an inflated multiway pot most of the time. Fish always feel "priced in" when two or more people call a raise.
 
stately7

stately7

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Yeah limping just feels wrong sometimes lol. Limping is bad because of how easily it can be exploited, but how often is it exploited by 1/2 fish? Almost never. Not only that, but you may actually be exploiting them by seeing flops in multiway pots with speculative hands.

About running into larger flushes - that's entirely dependent on your postflop skills. If you aren't strong enough to lay down a smaller flush when a passive fish is suddenly getting aggressive, you may want to stick to "ABC" TAG poker. I'm not saying you are or aren't strong enough, but if you do happen to find yourself losing big pots to larger flushes in these situations, you may want to re-evaluate things. Also, at 1/2, most of the fish are scared to death of three-flush boards, so if you have a flush (even the nut flush) on a paired board, you better really analyze things when you're facing a raise. I actually laid down a King-high flush today on a 6-6-2-7-A board when my opponent min-raised my half-pot bet on the river. The guy was so tight and bluffed literally 0% of the time. He showed quad 6's when I mucked.

I'm not sure there is much to be said for raising hands like K2o or A5o unless you have a dead read on everyone at the table. You'll just find yourself in an inflated multiway pot most of the time. Fish always feel "priced in" when two or more people call a raise.

Thanks for these thoughts Sand. Not raising those poor implied odds hands (K2s / A5o) makes a ton of sense, I never do at 200NL for the very reason you suggested. I do a lot of research and it does get a little confusing for me reading books that explore strategies that are really for playing higher stakes / better opponents, if you get me.

Re running into higher flushes: fortunately I haven't run into them, but I only recently added hands like 98s into my raising range, so if I continue, it's bound to happen sooner or later. This thread began because the concept of raising pre with them being a losing play at these stakes occurred to me. Raise or over limp, one needs to play them well post-flop either way I guess. I do play pretty ABC tag live, my post-flop skills are OK (improving!) rather than excellent, but yeah I'm capable of putting info together and laying down hands.

I hear you re paired boards. Very nice fold on the quad 6s hand! I lay down a nut flush hand against a decent reg (looser than me but not desperately so) a few weeks back.

My hand A9hearts (CO) - effective stacks $315 (200NL)
Folded to me, aside from one limper: I raise to $10
Two callers: (button and BB)

Board: Jh 7h 3c (pot approx. $30)
Checked to me, I bet $20, button calls, BB folds. Put villain on mostly Jx hands at this stage, maybe 78s or 67s including weaker flush draws with one pair.

Turn: 3h ($70)
I bet $20 again here, button calls. This I think was a huge mistake, as I'm pricing in boat draws. $55 would have told me a lot more about his hand. I think this was a rookie error around being too greedy / slowplaying the near nuts.

River Js (110)
This was really a disgusting card! At this point, I check and fold to a $80 bet. Villain showed KJ for a full house. Well, ofc he did!
 
Mr Sandbag

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Yeah I think a huge flaw that even really sound players make at 1/2 is leveling themselves. They overthink things a bit and get too fancy despite the obvious lines people take.
 
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