Originally Posted by MartyMcFly42
Before replying further, there's something I want to share with you (all), but what inspired me was your thinking about how FR is. In my 9 month experience, they are very tigh. I may not be the best player (far from it, even more than you), but my database - stats on players - is getting bigger every day.
I have read many times that NL2 micros is infested with many fishes. But what if it's just and legend now, what if it was true in past years and nowadays these tables are quite tight? Because when I look at my PT database which tracks about
Wow, it must just be us Americans that were the fish on PS/FT
I've just started playing again on Bovada
and while I have less than 10k hands at 5NL and 10NL there are tons of fish. It's common for a 6max table to have 2 or 3 players running 60/10, 25/3, and 55/40. Granted it's only over 50 or 100 hands or so, but that is pretty common there. Of course sometimes I sit at a table and there is no one with a VPIP over 30 or so after a few orbits. When that happens it's time to drop that table and find another. I haven't played FR on Bovada so I can't comment on the fish population there, but I am fairly sure it's similar.
When I was able to play on PS and FT it's true the tables usually had at least 2 or 3 bad players, often times more. When there wasn't, there were so many tables running that you could just drop that one and find another. I don't know how the traffic is on PS nowadays, it probably is tighter than years past, but I find it hard to believe that the majority of 2NL players are now solid. Sure they are probably a bit better preflop, but they are likely making lots of mistakes postflop.
How aggressively are you table selecting? When you sit at a table for a few orbits and you can see there aren't any bad players it's probably time to leave that table and find another. You should be able to tell within those first 30 or so hands (probably even less than that). Filter the lobby for average players to flop percentage and try to sit at the top tables.
1)14.000 players I've encountered during my 9 month play, their VPIP is 20,84 and their PFR is 10,39 - including fishes and ultra tight players. That seems pretty good players in NL2 PS Europe.
21/10 I would say is semi-loose passive preflop in FR. They are likely limping or calling raises too often preflop with marginal hands and only raising with their premium hands. It's hard to say how they are after the flop, but most times their passive preflop play translates to passive postflop play (not always). They will be check/calling when they get a piece of the flop, and betting or raising when they have something good. It's up to you to figure out what exactly a piece of the flop is to them using your HUD stats, reads, and history, then play accordingly. I know, much easier said then done.
Just disregard the word "good" I used and look at the stats. As I said, when I look at hand replays from few years ago, guides and videos, I see and hear about a lot of fish, mostly obvious by their VPIP. Yet when I play at the NL2 tables, I see tight players everywhere with ocassional potentional fish, who is quickly devoured by the other, more skilled tight players.
You are going to have to take the fish's money before the others do. I don't know how many tables you are playing at once, but whether its 1 or 4 or 12 you need to be table selecting like your life depends on it. If you must sit at a table full of super tight players, you need to loosen up. Sitting there and playing the 'let's see who can play the fewest hands' game is not the best course of action. An overly simple way of looking at it is when your opponents are playing loose, you want to play tighter; when your opponents are playing tight, you want to play looser. Obviously it's not that simple and figuring out just how much tighter or looser is something you'll have to learn.
I see the stats. And it does seem that the general preflop play is a bit tighter, but the population is playing 2NL for the same reasons you are. They are still learning the game and are still making mistakes. It's not that they are all solid winning players that just play 2NL for the money. You need to identify these mistakes and exploit them in your opponents, while fixing them in your game.
You keep giving stats and saying how tight the games are. If the games are as tight as you say, then you need to loosen up (or even better find looser tables if at all possible). You need to be playing more hands in position that can flop big hands or big draws (suited connectors, small pocket pairs, suited aces, etc). You need to learn how to play those hands on certain board textures and how they relate to your opponents range.
I feel that most of what I said in my previous post still applies. Open more hands in the CO and BTN targeting players that are prone to giving up postflop or folding to steals too often. Sometimes you'll steal the blinds preflop. Sometimes you'll take the pot down without a hand postflop. Sometimes you'll even flop a huge hand.
Another thing you may want to study is 3betting light. I remember when I was first starting I had a ridiculous Fold to 3bet stat, like 90%. For obvious reasons this was easily exploitable for anyone that had enough hands on me. Versus players with a high stat like that you can practice 3betting them with hands like small suited aces. Hands that have potential postflop, are easy to let go if they 4bet you, and even better when they have blockers making the odds they contain a high ace less likely. Use moderation if you experiment with this. If someone opens from EP it's probably a bad idea to 3bet them light. You'll want to be more inclined to try this when you're on the BTN and say the HJ or CO opens.
Here are a few threads that I would recommend reading and studying. They are a bit dated (for example he lists small pocket pairs as a limping range which at that time was fine, but nowadays it's probably not ideal to be open limping), but they are really useful and most of what he says still holds true. They're all written by the CC member ChuckTs. His posts helped my game more than I could ever have imagined.
Microstakes FR Guide
Why are you betting?