Ask Mental Game Coach Jared Tendler

[Jared Tendler]

Great to have you here, Jared.

Here's my question: I think the length of my poker sessions is somewhat results oriented. I can play long sessions when I start by getting stuck, and play a pretty long time until I get unstuck. On the other hand, when I start my session by running good, I tend to quit relatively early, which is obviously a leak as I'm probably playing against a softer competition. What can I do to overcome this tendency of mine?

I'm a semi regular at 100nl, which means I play about 50 hours/month on average, but it's still mostly a hobby as I do have a very nice and fullfilling job that I certainly don't intend to quit for poker.

I've been playing for 3 years now and I think I've always had the problem of playing longer sessions when i'm down and shorter ones when I'm up. When I'm up, I think I want to score a win and I'm afraid I won't if I keep playing. When I'm down, sometimes I'll realize I'm really playing terrible and just leave, but sometimes I realize I got really unlucky and only played a couple of hands badly and then I'll focus a lot more and try to play my best to get unstuck.

I realize I can't win every session, but obviously I think I should. I love the mental challenge of playing poker but I kind of hate anything related to gambling and I'd much rather have the randomness of results taken away in order to score a constant profit.

One of the major causes of your results oriented approach to session length comes from the last paragraph. The reason I asked if you believe it, is because why logically many players know they can, deep down the want to or think they should. It's this flaw which keeps you from making real strides in becoming less results oriented and more focused on the quality of your play to dictate how long you play.

The reality is in poker that you can't take the risk completely out - there is too much beyond your control for that to ever happen. Working your way out of this results oriented mindset happens by continuing to focus more on what you can control - the quality of your play, the quality of your mindset, the quality of how you work/improve - rather than trying to win every session. The motivation to win every session is what's throwing you off - instead be motivated towards something that's actually possible and that you can have an impact on.

The improvement here may not happen right away, so you'll have to stick with it and continue to reduce the urge to want to make results oriented decisions. One way to do that, is to do exactly what you did - ask yourself how you're playing. Something you can also when winning. I'd also suggest that after every session you take some notes detailing how you played. This will help you become better at knowing it - it's like your learning how to recognize how well your playing and doing so makes results in the short-term less important.

Does this all make sense? If so, keep us posted on your progress.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Thanks Jared, very nice insight i havent thought about it that way (learning, learned).

I am actually very interested in learning new things, theories and try them right away when i understand the logic behind and see if it works in practice. Though most of the stuff especially about poker feels like things i can figure out myself but just verbalized, theorized better.

I have been playing poker for almost 15 years now and probably i am one of the first people that deposited online to play poker but then i was just a teenager with a lot of gamble in me and didnt take it seriously and never played full time. 1 month example is just one of several periods that i decide myself; ok let take this seriously this time but never get past this period for the reasons i stated.

Now back to what you said about learning and learned that got me interested is when it gets automatic, i stop thinking because i believe i am good enough, lose concantration or play too many tables; i lose. But whenever i concantrate and think in every situation i feel like i can beat anyone.

I am one of those people that think i can figure out anything with my logic. That may be the reason that i dont learn as you said but just understand the logic, thought process and put it aside thinking its enough.

I would love to hear if you have anything to add. Thanks again. You are a great value to CC.

Yw, I'm happy to hear the insight has helped improve your perspective towards correcting this. The only thing I'd add here is that it is logically that you would lose concentration when you think you're too good. It would be illogical for you to focus at a time when you 'think' that you've learned something. It's a false learning of course - proven by it going away when you don't think.

The reason I mention that is you can use your logic - to logically explain things that tend to seem illogical. The key is just having the right information to figure it out.

Best to you.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Hi Jared and thanks for making this thread.

I've been a poker player for a while now and I feel I have a pretty solid HU game, although still lacking. The more I play the more I feel I'm improving, but I still get overexcited every time I hit a winning streak and I kind of 'burn out' after a medium sized session.

Though my game is improving I still haven't brought myself to be the supercalm poker player I'd like to be. Any thoughts about this?

Thanks,
Grndr101

Hey Grinder, I have some ideas for you but I'd like to know more about your over excitement first. Generally what happens during this time...(few questions to get you thinking about if needed)...do you play more? are you thinking about future goals and how much money you make or stakes you'd play? do you start to feel invincible or like you can beat anyone?

Best,
Jared

 

[Grinder101]

Hey Grinder, I have some ideas for you but I'd like to know more about your over excitement first. Generally what happens during this time...(few questions to get you thinking about if needed)...do you play more? are you thinking about future goals and how much money you make or stakes you'd play? do you start to feel invincible or like you can beat anyone?

Best,
Jared

Generally I'm not able to put in the volume(number of games) that I'd like to (as opposed to my break even/losing sessions). I'd actually like to push my winning streaks.
And yes I do think about my BR and winnings, future goals etc. But actually more when I'm losing (but that's another problem).
And I don't feel invincible at all although I do feel confident of my playing abilities when I'm on a winning streak.
If I were to sum it up I'd say I'm more afraid of losing when I'm ahead then when I'm behind.

Thanks for answering my question

 

[dg1267]

Hello Jared, and welcome to CC! Wish I would've seen this earlier.

My question pertains to overly aggro opponents that keep pulling off miraculous wins. I play micro stakes and it seems I run into these guys 2 or 3 times a day. I'll be sitting at a cash game and another player will join. That player will immediately start raising and re-raising and just always seem to have the hand. My initial reaction is to slow down and try to catch a good hand to play back with. But when I catch something like AQ and play back at him I tend to get married to my hand and play it until death. And that usually leads me to getting my AQ busted with some random hand sending me into space monkey tilt.

The whole time prior to the good hand I can keep it in my head that I'm not the "table police" and that I don't have to be the one to bust this guy. But as soon as I get a good hand it's like I've been dealt the "table police badge" and I can't let it go. How do I fix this?

 

[forsakenone]

I have my suspicion of what the deal is here, but a couple questions for you first.

You say you've started 20-24 tabling lately, how many were you playing before? How long were you able to stay focused at that number?

well let me tell you how the story goes. back when i had 20$ in my account (took me like 6 months to make them via freerolls) i joined 20 tables 2nl with 1 dollar. so i never really played 1 table, 6 tables, 12 tables, i just jumped into 20, but the thing is i was playing 9 handed at 2nl and now i play 6 handed which is way faster and i seem to get tired in about 1 hour. playing 9 handed i was able to stay focused for maybe 4 hours, playing 6 handed i lose focus in 1 hour.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Generally I'm not able to put in the volume(number of games) that I'd like to (as opposed to my break even/losing sessions). I'd actually like to push my winning streaks.
And yes I do think about my BR and winnings, future goals etc. But actually more when I'm losing (but that's another problem).
And I don't feel invincible at all although I do feel confident of my playing abilities when I'm on a winning streak.
If I were to sum it up I'd say I'm more afraid of losing when I'm ahead then when I'm behind.

Thanks for answering my question

There's an interesting relationship between future winnings and goals, and with fear of losing. They go hand in hand, but it's really really subtle. When you're winning a ton you begin to have a bit of tunnel vision - where all you see is more winning. Then you start thinking about what this will mean for the future and because all you see is winning and good things that's the future reality you project in your mind - like a movie projector.

YW! I'm interested in how this goes.

The exact same pattern happens when you are losing only the details are different - all you see are losses so your projection of the future only contains that.

While this is really subtle - were are constantly, mostly unconsciously, creating projected ideas of the future in our minds and that projection then informs the present. So when you're winning, you feel even better a the time because you see more winning in your future. When you're losing you feel even worse at that time because you see more losing in your future. The only problem is you aren't paid as a psychic - but in this case you're totally bought into the thoughts of the future as being what is actually going to happen.

So when you're winning you start to get worried about losing that future. So you try to protect it, and that creates the fear of losing. Something that can only happen because very subtly in that moment you believe that you are in greater control of your future than you actually are. Control of the cards, of the poker economy, and your opponents. Which is true because your future projection assumes that variance, your opponents and the poker economy is going to stay exactly the same. That nothing will change. Of course you don't really believe all this logically, but deep down your reaction at this time proves that you actually do.

Does all this make sense?

The reason I'm trying to lay all this out is because how we understand the cause determine what solution to put into play.

What I'd suggest is forcing yourself to take purposeful steps back to remind yourself of what you control - your work ethic, your focus, your poker decisions, how you improve, etc. If you're doing this in a session, keep the reminder really short, and then after your session write about it. You need to break through the emotion and upgrade this old way of thinking to be more in control of what you actually do control and writing is a great way to do that. Basically you'd be writing to describe first how you felt, then why this is flawed, and lastly what you're going to do to be more in control. This may be repetitive, but if you want to improve the pattern, learning requires lots of repetition.

YW! I'm interested in how this goes, let me know.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Hello Jared, and welcome to CC! Wish I would've seen this earlier.

My question pertains to overly aggro opponents that keep pulling off miraculous wins. I play micro stakes and it seems I run into these guys 2 or 3 times a day. I'll be sitting at a cash game and another player will join. That player will immediately start raising and re-raising and just always seem to have the hand. My initial reaction is to slow down and try to catch a good hand to play back with. But when I catch something like AQ and play back at him I tend to get married to my hand and play it until death. And that usually leads me to getting my AQ busted with some random hand sending me into space monkey tilt.

The whole time prior to the good hand I can keep it in my head that I'm not the "table police" and that I don't have to be the one to bust this guy. But as soon as I get a good hand it's like I've been dealt the "table police badge" and I can't let it go. How do I fix this?

Hey Dg - interesting question.

First one for you - I realize it's just at this time...why do you feel like you need to be policing the table? What's your intent behind playing back - meaning, besides winning what lesson are you trying show this aggro nut?

 

[Jared Tendler]

well let me tell you how the story goes. back when i had 20$ in my account (took me like 6 months to make them via freerolls) i joined 20 tables 2nl with 1 dollar. so i never really played 1 table, 6 tables, 12 tables, i just jumped into 20, but the thing is i was playing 9 handed at 2nl and now i play 6 handed which is way faster and i seem to get tired in about 1 hour. playing 9 handed i was able to stay focused for maybe 4 hours, playing 6 handed i lose focus in 1 hour.

Got it. Sounds like this is really simply an issue of capacity. Think of mental energy/focus as being exactly the same as physical energy. So playing 9 handed because of the pace was like walking fast - where playing 6 handed is like running. So because your exerting more energy you get tired faster.

My advice is to decide what make more sense to work on first - adding tables or hours. So if you can play 20 tables for 1hr, how many hours can you play 15 tables? Then to improve either the length of time, or number of tables, you have to work on it like you would increasing physical energy. So go from 20tables/hr --> 20tables/1hr 10mins. Or 15tables/2hrs (hypothetically) --> 16tables/2hrs. Then work at it steadily until the increase gets easy and then add more - just like you would add weight or reps to a bench press or speed or distance to a run.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Hey Dg - interesting question.

First one for you - I realize it's just at this time...why do you feel like you need to be policing the table? What's your intent behind playing back - meaning, besides winning what lesson are you trying show this aggro nut?

I would add that Ed miler did a video on this a while back.

The jist was that if the average player isnt an agro nut then is it more likely that the player is an agro nut or had just had a good run of cards?


Often the decision that they are agro is made before seeing any of their SD hands.

Now if this guy is raising and 3-betting every other hand and has been doing it for the last 4 orbits, then he is likely an argo not, but in my experience, if a player raises and reraises 3 times in one orbit, especially if he is new to the table, someone will decide he needs to be played back at and start shoving etc.

A lot of the time (but not all of the time) he will show up with something fairly decent and then that beggs the question, did he just get dealt hands like AA, QQ, AK and KK 3 times in succession. Or did you just catch him with the one decent hand he got dealt.

EM argues that given the average player isnt usually a manic, and given that usually the players hole cards are usually unknown until someone makes a stand, that more often than not you are not facing a manic but instead facing a player on a good run of cards.

 

[dg1267]

Hey Dg - interesting question.

First one for you - I realize it's just at this time...why do you feel like you need to be policing the table? What's your intent behind playing back - meaning, besides winning what lesson are you trying show this aggro nut?

The only real reason I can think of is pride. And this wouldn't be the first time pride has gotten in my way. It tends to mess up lots of things. But honestly I think it's the fact that I spend so much time studying poker that I feel I have an obligation to the table to knock this dude down a notch. And I used to try to be the "table police" all the time, but in the last couple of years this is about the only time it shows up. I really don't know why I can't just let this slide and play hands against these guys the same as I would anyone else. Getting married to hands is something that I've worked a lot on and I can lay down just about anything when I really feel I'm beat. But this is one of those spots where my training goes out the window and the primal urge to digitally kick the sh*t out someone takes over.

Edit: Stu, I didn't see your post until after I posted this, but I'll add on my answer here. Recalling some of the times I'm thinking about, it's usually after a couple orbits at least. I play 6max mainly, so the orbits go much faster. But, to be honest, I can't really say yes or no to this. After this happens I force myself to leave the table because nothing good is going to come from me staying, so therefore I really don't see much of what's going on after I get busted. But I've been working on profiling players for the last year or so and I really don't feel I would make a judgment without seeing at least one good showdown from a person. But I would definitely be eyeballing someone who joined a table and within 4-5 hands bullied his way to an early win in 3 or 4 of them. But I don't think I would mark this person as an "aggrotard" until I at least seen a showdown or two. And if I catch decent holdings or a decent drawing hand I will try to pot control and get to a showdown just to see some hole cards to get an idea of how a person is playing. If I see someone playing 66 rather fast I won't label them an aggrotard. But if he shows down with 72 on a 2JQ8A board and has bet every street, I'll usually note him with the "AT" label and the reason.

But as I think back, I'm really separating what you are talking about with what I'm talking about. Since I haven't played a lot of cash in a while it's really hard for me to bring up exact examples, but I really feel I would not go off on someone if I hadn't seen at least a showdown or two and noticed some really bad play. Does that make any sense?

 

[the lab man]

Jared ...A big welcome to the forum.

I am a recreational Player that has played for about 6 years. Have not deposited in years (ok 2 years) manage to cash out a few hundred every year. I go thru the downswings that so many of us do. Seem to be currently in one.

I bounce all over the board playing mostly MTTs, some S&G Dons and throw in some micro cash games.

In an earlier post you mentioned Goals for Poker. I am a Realtor and every year set my yearly and monthly goals for sales, but where do I start as far as Poker Goals? I'm a little lost and could use some help.

Thank You

 

[Jared Tendler]

The only real reason I can think of is pride. And this wouldn't be the first time pride has gotten in my way. It tends to mess up lots of things. But honestly I think it's the fact that I spend so much time studying poker that I feel I have an obligation to the table to knock this dude down a notch. And I used to try to be the "table police" all the time, but in the last couple of years this is about the only time it shows up. I really don't know why I can't just let this slide and play hands against these guys the same as I would anyone else. Getting married to hands is something that I've worked a lot on and I can lay down just about anything when I really feel I'm beat. But this is one of those spots where my training goes out the window and the primal urge to digitally kick the sh*t out someone takes over.

I'm glad I asked, because you're much closer to the end of solving this problem than the beginning. You've been aware of it for some time, and whatever you've been doing to address the problem before has clearly been working. As often happens with issues, there's always pockets of the issue that continue to hang out and because they don't happen often can easily make you believe the issue is gone. It sounds like its 95% gone, but the fact that it shows up at all causes you some frustration.

My advice is two fold - 1) keep doing what you've been doing and keep an eye out for that badge popping back up. 2) Further reduce the likelihood that it'll pop-up, means that you also take away the benefit that comes with it. Pride. Pride is what you get out of this, and from the sounds of it, pride for being right. That you have to tell this aggro nut how to play. Which really comes down to control. You want to control how they play, and feel proud by telling them so. The bottom line - beside this control being an illusion - is that you simply need to refocus yourself on figuring out how to play well and better. That is all you have control of and for that you feel proud about always.

 

[ChuckTs]

Hey Jared,

I assume you're still doing personal coaching - what are your rates like now?

-Taylor

 

[Jared Tendler]

Jared ...A big welcome to the forum.

I am a recreational Player that has played for about 6 years. Have not deposited in years (ok 2 years) manage to cash out a few hundred every year. I go thru the downswings that so many of us do. Seem to be currently in one.

I bounce all over the board playing mostly MTTs, some S&G Dons and throw in some micro cash games.

In an earlier post you mentioned Goals for Poker. I am a Realtor and every year set my yearly and monthly goals for sales, but where do I start as far as Poker Goals? I'm a little lost and could use some help.

Thank You

Thanks for the big welcome!

Given that you're a recreational player, my advice is different than I'd give someone who's a pro. My guess is that if you were to become a pro given your experience setting goals in your profession, but with hobbies or things you take much less seriously, there's a middle ground with goal setting that's really critical because you want to keep it fun. If it becomes too serious you may lose that.

In terms of goals, you might set goals for:

How much you want to play in a give month.
The quality of focus when you play.
Learning - read a book/month or 3/year, post some hands, etc.
Improving weaknesses in your game.
Improving starting hand play, reading board texture, hand reading or other specific poker skills.

If you set money as a goal - which is fine - just make sure you balance it out with 3 or 4 other goals for how you plan on making that much since it's those skills which in the end are what makes it happen.

Does that give you the direction you're looking for?

 

[Jared Tendler]

Hey Jared,

I assume you're still doing personal coaching - what are your rates like now?

-Taylor

Hey Taylor,

I am still doing coaching. My rates are roughly the same as a year ago and detailed info is on my website.


Jared

 

[jbatesm]

Hello Jared and thanks for taking some time to answer our questions.

My first question is about managing my bankroll mentally. Im one of those players that when I go through some tough breaks that I feel like I need to win it all back at once. I tilt bad sometimes and I instantly think of changing the game so that I can win it back quicker. I obviously know that this is not the correct thing to do in this situation. How can I keep myself within my limits and to stop thinking about my losses. When Im winning, I feel like nothing can stop me at the table. When I am losing, the only thing i can think about is how I am losing. I do not take things too personal or change my play drastically because of it, but I do make bad decisions on moving up a level to win back the cash. How can I avoid myself from tilting and ending up losing most of bankroll?

 

[dg1267]

My advice is two fold - 1) keep doing what you've been doing and keep an eye out for that badge popping back up. 2) Further reduce the likelihood that it'll pop-up, means that you also take away the benefit that comes with it. Pride. Pride is what you get out of this, and from the sounds of it, pride for being right. That you have to tell this aggro nut how to play. Which really comes down to control. You want to control how they play, and feel proud by telling them so. The bottom line - beside this control being an illusion - is that you simply need to refocus yourself on figuring out how to play well and better. That is all you have control of and for that you feel proud about always.

Thanks for the advice. And since this was last posted I've plugged my keyboard into the front of my computer. When I start feeling the tilt coming on, I unplug it. So far it's working because whenever I get the urge to type something out I hit the keys and nothing happens. And it's amazing how fast the tilt feeling goes away after I realize what I'm doing.

And btw, hey ChuckT! Long time no see.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Hello Jared and thanks for taking some time to answer our questions.

My first question is about managing my bankroll mentally. Im one of those players that when I go through some tough breaks that I feel like I need to win it all back at once. I tilt bad sometimes and I instantly think of changing the game so that I can win it back quicker. I obviously know that this is not the correct thing to do in this situation. How can I keep myself within my limits and to stop thinking about my losses. When Im winning, I feel like nothing can stop me at the table. When I am losing, the only thing i can think about is how I am losing. I do not take things too personal or change my play drastically because of it, but I do make bad decisions on moving up a level to win back the cash. How can I avoid myself from tilting and ending up losing most of bankroll?

Hi! Yw, let's see if my answer here helps you.

Interestingly enough I'm writing about this kind of tilt today, so this topic is really fresh in my mind.

I'm really glad you mentioned how you think about winning, because if you look closely it's a mirror image of how you think when you lose - there's an assumption that either is just going to keep continuing. Feeling like nothing can stop you is an illusion. Just as feeling like nothing can stop you from losing is an illusion. The way to know for sure that you're assuming more losses is to just imagine what would happen at the time when you would jump up in stakes, if you knew that you were going to win at your regular stakes in the next 100 hands? Would you still jump up in stakes if you knew that to be true? If not, then your predicting or assuming more losses when you're losing.

The way out of this cycle has several parts to it, all of which take consistent work and effort. This is a vicious cycle and just like Newton's Laws of motion, it'll stay that way unless you do the work to correct it.

1) Predicting the future is a natural ability we all have. Inherently it isn't a problem. The reason that it predicts more losses is because of the data that it's using to calculate it - just as a computer would make a prediction based on what info was fed into it. The problem is the info that's being used is a really really small sample of results - sounds like it can happen in just one session. So at the time when you feel this urge coming on, you have to remember the bigger picture. If you have a real edge in the game losses are just temporary and look back at real results to prove that's true. Remember in that moment you're dealing with a mindset that is consumed by emotion. If you could talk to yourself in that moment, what could you hear that would remind you of the bigger picture? Take a few deep breaths to calm your emotions a bit, and tell it to yourself until you can be convinced to stay at your normal stakes. It'll take some effort - like getting an unruly drunk friend into a cab, but with some continued work it'll get easier over time.

2) In the long-term, I'd recommend working to understand or recognize your skill in the game more, so you can evaluate results not based solely on winning or losing, but on how well you played. It's really a skill in itself - to know your skill. Having that skill then allows you to know pretty immediately that you played well even when you lost. Since knowing that you played well is the greatest predictor of future results, this also helps with the first point in keeping the bigger picture in mind.


Some of this can be counter-intuitive, does it make sense?

 

[Jared Tendler]

Thanks for the advice. And since this was last posted I've plugged my keyboard into the front of my computer. When I start feeling the tilt coming on, I unplug it. So far it's working because whenever I get the urge to type something out I hit the keys and nothing happens. And it's amazing how fast the tilt feeling goes away after I realize what I'm doing.

And btw, hey ChuckT! Long time no see.

That's a really great idea!

If you want to speed this improvement up even more, take some notes down about what you're realizing after your session. That'll reinforce the knowledge even more and ultimately it is what's going to eliminate the tilt in the end, so eventually you can have your keyboard plugged in normally.

Great stuff, I'm happy to hear it's improving already.

 

[DawgBones]

Hello Jared. Welcome to CC and thanks for taking your time to do this. This question may have already been asked and if so all you (or anyone else) has to do is tell me to read the whole thread. Being a little lazy today. So here's my dilemna. Play both tourney and ring and when I'm not involved in a hand I can sometimes figure out what hands the players are betting on based on the amounts and the board. However, when I am involved in a hand, sometimes, with the same players I have observed, I have trouble focusing enough to know why or what they are playing. Do not multi-table or play for more than a few hours at a time so it's not fatigue. Every once in a while I just fall in love with a hand and can't seem to get away from it even when I'm pretty sure I am beat. On the other hand I sometimes give too much credit. How do I balance the two? Thanks, and once again welcome:congrats:

 

[ats777]

Jared - ty for taking the time to answer our questions.

My question relates to being too results oriented. I've begun to discover this to be a big problem of mine. I'm constantly checking on how I'm doing during a session, even updating my charts during sessions to check my progress. It didn't really strike me how destructive this is until I recently typed it out in another post. In essence, this leads to me being on an emotional roller coaster with the constant ups and downs. I also feel this begins to infect my decisions causing me to make plays I should not be making. (A specific example elludes (sp?) me at the moment.)

I know that it reallly boils down just having the discipline not to pay attention to results - or follow Dusty's advice in his book to check the cashier only at month's end, but I think I know why this is such a problem for me. I believe the issue resolves around a lack of confidence in my play. I've played poker for over 10 years; however, until Oct of last year, I treated it far more like gambling. I didn't pay attention to pot odds, outs, starting hands, etc. You know, just the basic fundamentals..haha. Anyway, in Oct, after a long layoff from the game, I decided to make a real attempt at learning the game and playing it right. I joined a new poker site, joined CardsChat, bought HEM and several books, started at the lowest limits and committed to grinding my way up. My goal for poker was that I have a good job, and don't have any plans for a professional poker future but would like for this to be a profitable hobby providing a nice second income. I've done well since Oct steadily moving up the limits over 90K hands (only play 10K-20K a month depending on priorities 1-3 tabling mainly), but yet still worry whether I'm playing well or am on some sick hot streak. I think much of this worry is as a result of my "gambling poker past"..of which there are still occasional relapses. So I believe I rely too much on results as my determination as to how I'm doing, which of course, puts pressure on every session to do well, which I think leads to me constantly worrying about how I'm doing, which infects my decision making. I'd love to get to the point of only checking my results only so often, but at the current moment, if I went on a long downswing of a week or more, I begin to lose confidence as to whether I know how to play...which, of course, puts even more pressure on results. This has happened more than once...each time my results recover, but I'd rather avoid the stress. I've read books and certainly understand the concept of variance. My bankroll is well above the recommended minimum so the swings do not cause me to worry about going bust. Am I just not accepting that variance is part of the game?I've recently started doing session reviews where I try to review my play independent of results. I use 5 of the questions you state in a chapter in Dusty's book as a judge. (ie. Quality of play, Quality of decisions, etc.). I think this helps, but still doesn't remove the temptation of checking results. I can review my hands/stats, but then doubt whether I'm "good enough" to make correct assessments. I've gotten involved in posting hands, responding to others, and no one's called me a moron yet. Guess I'm just curious if you have any advice on dealing with the confidence issue and overcoming my focus on results.

Sorry for the long-winded story, but based on your responses in the thread, I figured you'd like to know the provided info anyway. Appreciate you taking the time to read it and anything you can provide to help.

Once again, ty very much for participating in a thread like this.

 

[ats777]

Reflected on my original post/question and wanted to add that I do believe that can play, but there's a difference between believing and knowing and I think this is where the confidence issues occur.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Hello Jared. Welcome to CC and thanks for taking your time to do this. This question may have already been asked and if so all you (or anyone else) has to do is tell me to read the whole thread. Being a little lazy today. So here's my dilemna. Play both tourney and ring and when I'm not involved in a hand I can sometimes figure out what hands the players are betting on based on the amounts and the board. However, when I am involved in a hand, sometimes, with the same players I have observed, I have trouble focusing enough to know why or what they are playing. Do not multi-table or play for more than a few hours at a time so it's not fatigue. Every once in a while I just fall in love with a hand and can't seem to get away from it even when I'm pretty sure I am beat. On the other hand I sometimes give too much credit. How do I balance the two? Thanks, and once again welcome:congrats:

Hey Dawg!

Nope this hasn't been talked about yet. The first part of your question has to do with the difference between observation and actually doing it yourself. They are fundamentally two different things and observing for many reason is FAR easier. Which means that the degree of knowledge that you have mastered, is much less than you think. When you are struggling to find the line between falling in love and giving too much credit, on a pure poker level this highlights the weaknesses in your skill set, which means you have more work to do to master the knowledge and theory that allows you to make the right decision.

I think the problem that makes this all worse is what you believe or expect yourself to be able to do, because you can see what's going when observing. This has falsely lead you to believe you are capable when its on you to act, that you have mastered more. You know it yes, but that level of knowing is not yet strong enough for it to show up when the pressure is on you to make a decision. Many people don't realize that knowledge and learning is a process, similar to training something physical like a jump shot in basketball or a golf swing. It takes 1000's of repetitions for that technique to become trained to withstand pressure. Mental technique as you have for poker is the same thing, so the simple answer is to keep working, you haven't really mastered or owned what you think. Believe me, this is a problem for many many players so if you can work through this mental error, you're ahead of the game.


Best,
Jared

 

[Jared Tendler]

Jared - ty for taking the time to answer our questions.

My question relates to being too results oriented. I've begun to discover this to be a big problem of mine. I'm constantly checking on how I'm doing during a session, even updating my charts during sessions to check my progress. It didn't really strike me how destructive this is until I recently typed it out in another post. In essence, this leads to me being on an emotional roller coaster with the constant ups and downs. I also feel this begins to infect my decisions causing me to make plays I should not be making. (A specific example elludes (sp?) me at the moment.)

I know that it reallly boils down just having the discipline not to pay attention to results - or follow Dusty's advice in his book to check the cashier only at month's end, but I think I know why this is such a problem for me. I believe the issue resolves around a lack of confidence in my play. I've played poker for over 10 years; however, until Oct of last year, I treated it far more like gambling. I didn't pay attention to pot odds, outs, starting hands, etc. You know, just the basic fundamentals..haha. Anyway, in Oct, after a long layoff from the game, I decided to make a real attempt at learning the game and playing it right. I joined a new poker site, joined CardsChat, bought HEM and several books, started at the lowest limits and committed to grinding my way up. My goal for poker was that I have a good job, and don't have any plans for a professional poker future but would like for this to be a profitable hobby providing a nice second income. I've done well since Oct steadily moving up the limits over 90K hands (only play 10K-20K a month depending on priorities 1-3 tabling mainly), but yet still worry whether I'm playing well or am on some sick hot streak. I think much of this worry is as a result of my "gambling poker past"..of which there are still occasional relapses. So I believe I rely too much on results as my determination as to how I'm doing, which of course, puts pressure on every session to do well, which I think leads to me constantly worrying about how I'm doing, which infects my decision making. I'd love to get to the point of only checking my results only so often, but at the current moment, if I went on a long downswing of a week or more, I begin to lose confidence as to whether I know how to play...which, of course, puts even more pressure on results. This has happened more than once...each time my results recover, but I'd rather avoid the stress. I've read books and certainly understand the concept of variance. My bankroll is well above the recommended minimum so the swings do not cause me to worry about going bust. Am I just not accepting that variance is part of the game?I've recently started doing session reviews where I try to review my play independent of results. I use 5 of the questions you state in a chapter in Dusty's book as a judge. (ie. Quality of play, Quality of decisions, etc.). I think this helps, but still doesn't remove the temptation of checking results. I can review my hands/stats, but then doubt whether I'm "good enough" to make correct assessments. I've gotten involved in posting hands, responding to others, and no one's called me a moron yet. Guess I'm just curious if you have any advice on dealing with the confidence issue and overcoming my focus on results.

Sorry for the long-winded story, but based on your responses in the thread, I figured you'd like to know the provided info anyway. Appreciate you taking the time to read it and anything you can provide to help.

Once again, ty very much for participating in a thread like this.

You gave great detail here and because of that (and that you're familiar with my material), I don't have any follow-up questions here. I have a strong sense of the problem.

The bottom line is that results matter because they provide they feedback and feedback is the only way you can learn. Imagine what learning poker would be like without any of the instruction you've been given. That's a form of feedback, and results are another form. The key prinicipal here is the type of results that you're using to evaluate your game. The questions that you're answering from my chapter in Dusty's book is a great start and the fact that you said it's helping says that's it's working. Immediately after saying that you also say that it hasn't removed the desire to check results, which says to me that you were expecting it to be an instant fix. It's not. You have to build up the skill of seeing the results of the quality of your play steadily. It's not going to happen straight away, just as learning poker doesn't happen that quick either.

The other side to this, is also chipping away steadily at the tendency to check results. Going an entire month without check for you is impossible right now. Dusty's advice is sound, but only if you have the capability to do it, and you have to build up to it much like you would build actual muscles. So start with what you can do right now - a baseline - so if you check results 5x a session normally and 10x a session when losing, then the goal is to reduce the frequency steadily. Go to 3x, and 7x; then eventually to doing it once at the end of the session and 1 or 2 on bad session.

In my mind checking results once a month isn't the best thing for everyone. It's a nice idea, but generally it's recommended as a solution for being TOO focused on the money. Of course being too focused on money/results is a problem, but the real question is how do you get to the point where you don't feel like you HAVE to check them. It isn't by just avoiding scratching the itch, it's by giving your mind what it needs - feedback. And by giving it feedback on the quality of how you're playing, what you eventually do is train that skill so much so that you can have a strong sense of how you are playing in real time. Knowing that you are playing well is what you're looking for - that's what you want your confidence to be based on and that how you can know you can play, and knowing it when you're playing.

It's definitely counter-intuitive for a lot of people, does the rationale make sense?

Best,
Jared