Ask Mental Game Coach Jared Tendler

[Poof]

In building on my post to Sly, what is it about bad beats or running bad that affects your confidence?

While you both have a similar problem, the cause may be different.

OMG I have never been to a real shrink session, but think it would feel like this. While thinking about how to respond I realized a whole bunch of other things....I will be back, ty lol
I am sure part of it is I rely on my cards way too much, and cannot seem to get over that.
I play ring fwiw.

 

[Pokertron3000]

Nice of you to make this thread and welcome to Cards chat I dont really have many questions right now but I am sure some will be on their way soon.

How much of an advantage do you think having a mental coach is, and do you think anybody can benifit from your work in poker or do you think only certain types of players or personalities are able to be receptive enough to what you do?

What would you say (apart from you ) that your clients have in common to make them winners in what they do?

 

[buckster436]

Welcome to CC Jared,,, ok,, on what to do before you start a tournament,? is there any special things you can do before starting a big MTT, either physically or mentally that would make you think you have an advantage over the other players ? or has everyone have there own little thing they do to get ready,? for myself,i log out of CC @ 12:55 & log into the game site at 12:55, if a game starts at 1pm., i always try to log out & in to the game site 5 minutes before any game starts, for some reason it makes me feel lucky,, or am i just imagining it makes me lucky,? Thank You, Now the other players here know 1 of my tricks,LOL, buck

 

[Mortis]

I think I finally found the perfect person to ask this question...

I've been playing poker for about 3-4 years, since my (now ex-) roommate got me into it.. 3 months after I started playing, I entered into my first tournament of 30 people and won.. have been hooked ever since.

I started out playing as a hobby and just for fun, then joined CardsChat, which has significantly improved my game.. and now, I'm wanting to see if I can actually make a run at poker as a possible profession.. but lately, I've been going through a lot of personal BS, due to my living situation (kind of trapped in a lease with the ex-gf.. long story).. and there's a lot of arguing and crap. Now, it seems I've been using poker as an escape, which has been throwing me off of my game.

I guess my question is... what is the best way to deal with life tilt when playing poker?

I know the reasonable answer is probably just to get out of this situation, lol.. but I'm sure there will be other forms of life tilt that will effect my poker game in the future.. that's pretty much the biggest problem I've had in my poker game. I can deal with tilting during a poker game.. I don't really tilt that often.. but when I'm being affected personally in life situations.. it does affect my poker game.

 

[zek]

Not sure if this is a good place or not. You never know when you'll pick up another profitable response that will stick with you. I'm primarily a SNG player. Sometimes I play MTT's. I play cash when the bonuses come out. I play profitable cash through and after the bonus but eventually as the profitbale (thanks to the bonus unlock) play wears off my game changes, my expectations change, and I start losing money. Common sense says stick to the SNG's and MTT's unless there are cash game bonuses to be unlocked above and beyond regular cash game profits. But even so I find myself sticking with it longer than I should. There's some ego there and the iron man medals (full tilt) and other such things. The answer is "hey stoopid, don't play cash after you are done unlocking the bonuses" but I can't help myself at least for a little while.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Hello Jared... welcome to the forum. I heard you on Cash Plays with Jermiah Smith and I was impressed. I have a problem with tilt. I will build a decent bankroll playing poker tournaments only to decide to play cash games for a change. I will take a few bad beats or run bad for a while, and then... BAM!!! I'm playing all kinds of crappy hands and tilting away my bankroll. This is very destructive!! I've considered having FullTilt and PokerStars block me from playing cash games. How can I get beyond this problem. I am profitable in live cash games, but online I seem to go on tilt pretty quickly.

Thanks for the welcome and the good words on the interview.

I get the sense that at the time your tilting away your bankroll, that you may have gone into desperation mode - where you're doing anything and everything to win NOW. Of course that means making all kinds of ridiculous plays. There are a couple reasons why it comes on so suddenly for you, 1) accumulated tilt - which is emotion that is stored up overtime that doesn't show itself until you can't take it anymore and then it's like the damn breaks open, 2) You aren't aware of the subtle consistent rise in your emotions until its a major problem.

Both of these are really common and there's a different strategy associated with each. So before going further, am I on target about the desperation thing, if so does either reason fit you, and lastly, what is it about bad beats or a sustained bad run that throws you over the edge?

In the meantime, after every bad beat, remind yourself to focus on playing solid poker. The slippery slope starts with one, and if you can prevent emotion from rising by chipping away at the small causes of it immediately when it happens.

 

[Jared Tendler]

OMG I have never been to a real shrink session, but think it would feel like this. While thinking about how to respond I realized a whole bunch of other things....I will be back, ty lol
I am sure part of it is I rely on my cards way too much, and cannot seem to get over that.
I play ring fwiw.

That's cool to hear a few things came to mind. For you and for anyone reading this, it's really important to know that anything that comes to mind is rational and logical. So often what feels irrational/illogical to you is only that way because you lack the reason. Sometimes these reason are really quite simple and it doesn't have to be some issue from childhood.

If you're relying on cards too much, that suggests to me that you're relying too much on results to define the quality of your game. Sure making money and winning is at the end of the day how players are measured, but in the short-term results of course are unreliable. So you need a way of having something to hang your confidence on besides results particularly when it goes bad. What that means is that you can measure your skill. That you can finish a session an know how you played, even if you lost. You'll never be able to distinguish your game from variance 100%, but by making and effort to see how you played hands that required a lot of thought (vs. just big wins/losses) you can see how good your decision making is. Or if there are areas of your game you're working on, mark those hands and review afterward how you did.

I'm sure there are 100's of ways to identify how you played, and by consistently doing that you'll be able to walk away from sessions where you lost and feel good that you lost the minimum (and at a time that's really hard for you).

 

[Jared Tendler]

Nice of you to make this thread and welcome to Cards chat I dont really have many questions right now but I am sure some will be on their way soon.

How much of an advantage do you think having a mental coach is, and do you think anybody can benifit from your work in poker or do you think only certain types of players or personalities are able to be receptive enough to what you do?

What would you say (apart from you ) that your clients have in common to make them winners in what they do?

Good questions.

So much of what the mental game offers is the ability for you to consistently play at a high level - for your poker A game to show up. With problems like tilt, anxiety, focus out of the way, the players that I've worked with long enough have definitely gained an advantage.

While I do think anyone who is open to what a mental game coach can offer can benefit, that's really only true if it make sense relative relative to the limits, BR and goals a player has. There are also players who I've turned away because I though they had personal issues (including drugs) that would make my work a waste.

I don't think it's only certain personalities who would be receptive to what I do, I think the main reason people wouldn't benefit is because psychology can often be esoteric and in some cases complete crap. Psychology/mental game can get a bad rap and rightfully so. I've opened a lot of people's eyes with my methods because it makes a lot of the esoteric stuff real, quantifiable and logical. The comment I hear most often in sessions is "that makes sense."


The commonalities among my clients that come to mind are:

1) Generally they have a solid work ethic, especially when things are going great or terrible.

2) Above average intelligence.

3) Open to new ideas and comfortable talking about the parts of their game where they suck.

4) Have clear goals - and when those goals are met, set new ones.

5) Generally self aware or are willing to become more so.

 

[NineLions]

Losing is important to poker; without losing and randomness and chance the bad players wouldn't continue to play. But is there an attitude or approach that we can work towards that enables us to accept and even desire losing simply because we acknowledge that it is so important to the game itself?

I wouldn't go so far as to say that you desire losing, but I think I know where you're head is at in thinking about this. If I'm correct, you're asking what the right attitude is to have towards losing?

The question I have for you is, why do you have trouble losing?

The answer that question and I can share more. There isn't a magic bullet that's the best way all players should think about losing. Your post suggests that you understand logically why losing is important, but there's a part of you that won't accept it and I'm guessing reacts negatively when you do. There a wide range of reason for why players react to losing and with a bit more info on it for you, I can help you solve it.

Well, there's all sorts of potential trouble that may come from losing; anger/frustration leading to sub-optimal play and further losing (tilt) and/or bleeding over into non-poker life. Or loss of confidence leading to weak/passive play.

I realized after I posted the question that it may be more of a Tommy Angelo question rather than a Jared Tendler question. It has something to do with me trying to accept and to include losing better as part of the whole experience of playing poker. I suspect that I deal better with losing than many poker players but I also feel that there is further that I can achieve in terms of integrating losing (and winning, for that matter) into a whole integrated experience.

 

[slycbnew]

Thanks Sly!


This post I made to Brank is part of the answer for you too: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/lea...-coach-jared-tendler-176157/post-1478228.html.

To get to the rest though, like I've offered to others here, requires more information from you first. You say that you lack confidence - how do you know it? Do you have questions in your mind about your game? If so, what are they? Do you get negative or worry about the future or goals that you have? As specific as you can be what is it about a downswing that causes you to lose confidence?

Psyching yourself up before sessions is a decent short-term solution, but it's not something that can actually fix the problem. Once we understand the cause, the solution gets much easier.

Great reply, and there is so much to think about here that I put off replying for a few days. I also did a bit of reading on your forum at dtb, which put more context around this.

Broadly, when I'm running good, I feel like I'm sitting at the tables with a specific plan of attack, know how to respond to different types of players/table conditions, and feel competent. When I'm running bad, I question my game a lot. It feels very much like the Sun Tzu quote in The Poker Mindset - "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win." I feel like I have some measure of control in the first scenario (control over whether I'm making +Ev moves or not given table conditions), while in the second I feel like I'm "stabbing" at different tactics and playing catchup, trying to find opportunities rather than thinking I have the opportunities mapped out in advance.

I've invested a ton of time, so I have a good deal of self-image tied up in the game, and I'm sure that's having an impact. I have a number of personal goals tied up in the game as well, but I'm reluctant to post them in a public forum.

I realize I haven't directly replied to all the points in your reply, but did want to say thanks for a very thought provoking reply.

 

[FOLDORBUSTEM]

Do you know of or have had any dealing with someone with bipolar that plays poker and how do they handle things?

I have been trying to learn about the game and learn where I am going wrong as much as possible.

Things go fine for a while and build my bank role until I have a mania period which I seem to do everything wrong, probably firstly is play when I am manic.

I get a bad beat , get raged, go tilted and do everything wrong when manic, when I am not manic I can cope with all the bad beats and not go tilted.

Maybe I have answered the Question myself, Maybe I should just find a way of not playing when I am In a funny mood.

 

[lektrikguy]

Welcome and many thanks for joining us. I hope to keep checking this post and tightening up what I think is a major hole in my game(and many of ours)-going on tilt.


Mods- I assume you have removed the daily post limit? Thought so.

 

[Debi]

That was done the day he joined.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Great to have you here, Jared.

Here's my question: I think the length of my poker sessions is somewhat results oriented. I can play long sessions when I start by getting stuck, and play a pretty long time until I get unstuck. On the other hand, when I start my session by running good, I tend to quit relatively early, which is obviously a leak as I'm probably playing against a softer competition. What can I do to overcome this tendency of mine?

 

[Poker Orifice]

dakota scores again... good stuff!

 

[Skidmark]

Hi Jared, welcome to CC.
My question is; i get bored easily about every subject including poker for example lets say i play 100$ sngs for a month and i beat them and as soon as i convince myself that i can beat it, i start to lack dicipline and concantration. I either have to move up stakes quickly or change the type of game i play otherwise i tend to try fancy things and spew because of that i cant set any long term goals. How do i overcome that?

 

[Skaplun]

hello jared, thank you for allowing us this opportunity to learn and improve.

I have two main questions and I'll just plunge into them

1. this is short but I think extremely important: what is the optimal way to get into a session? to get into the zen or the mode or the zone? What sort of mental or physical preparation would you suggest?

2. an important stat in poker is VPIP, now I have built on that a different stat that I think is far more imporant. We'll name it VMODH lol, it stands for Voluntarily Make Optimal Decisions in Hand. I find that there's a certain cap to the amount of optimal decisions I can make in any given game. When I play 8 tables that means I actively lower my VPIP and EP as well as MP play. I am aware of this more than I think others are however I still have not figured out a proper way to control and increase the amount of decisions I make without slipping into sub-optimal -ev thought process. What do you think of this? how would you suggest I improve this?

 

[Jared Tendler]

Hi Jarad

Thanks for getting back on this one.

I'm not 100% sure how to explain it.

I think the number of decisions is a huge factor because it tends to happen more with 10 tables than 6, I guess my concentration is being stretched at that point so a sudden influx of difficult decisions isnt good.

I dont know why I'm going to say the next bit because I dont want to send you off in the wrong direction. So dont take what I say next as being 100% correct. Its just my perception.

I think that it is triggering a flight / fight response. I find my hands shake a little, and I have a sensation that I think is an increase in adrenaline. Visually whites seem whiter.. its very hard to explain but its a feeling I associate with adrenaline.

Sorry Stu - I just realize I missed your post, I think you responded while I was and went right past it.

If you think the issue is just one related to the number of decisions then I think the answer is pretty straightforward. A lot players (people in general) tend to not think about capacity issues when it comes to the mind, but the mind plays by the same rules as the body. Hard to come up with a perfect example like this in a sport, but lets say you were a goalie in hockey or soccer, or a center in basketball and the was a mad scramble around the goal or hoop. One of those really long ones that seems to go on forever (especially if your the player and certainly for a fan watching). In that moment the goalie/center is exterting a lot of physical energy - and no one would even blink thinking that there adrenaline was jacked up for that time.

Mentally it's the exact same thing - only here your exertion in mental. Thinking requires energy. And when your in a tough spot that is really stretching you beyond what you can comfortably do normally, you're using way more energy. So it makes sense why you would make a few bad calls - it's in this kind of a situation where weaknesses show up.

As for fight/flight response - it is definitely getting triggered. Which means that you have to work hard to recognize when the beats are building and prevent yourself from getting to that point. At that point, your capacity to think goes down dramatically and you fall back on bad instinctual patterns.

Does all this make sense?

 

[Jared Tendler]

Welcome to CC Jared,,, ok,, on what to do before you start a tournament,? is there any special things you can do before starting a big MTT, either physically or mentally that would make you think you have an advantage over the other players ? or has everyone have there own little thing they do to get ready,? for myself,i log out of CC @ 12:55 & log into the game site at 12:55, if a game starts at 1pm., i always try to log out & in to the game site 5 minutes before any game starts, for some reason it makes me feel lucky,, or am i just imagining it makes me lucky,? Thank You, Now the other players here know 1 of my tricks,LOL, buck

There are a lot of things players do to get ready for a tourney. The one thing that I'd suggest you can simply add is just to have a few keys to what you want to focus on for it. Basically what are the areas of your game either poker or mental that are key to you playing your best. Maintain high focus throughout, make good reads and adjustments, think through all hands, etc.

GL Buck!

 

[Jared Tendler]

I think I finally found the perfect person to ask this question...

I've been playing poker for about 3-4 years, since my (now ex-) roommate got me into it.. 3 months after I started playing, I entered into my first tournament of 30 people and won.. have been hooked ever since.

I started out playing as a hobby and just for fun, then joined CardsChat, which has significantly improved my game.. and now, I'm wanting to see if I can actually make a run at poker as a possible profession.. but lately, I've been going through a lot of personal BS, due to my living situation (kind of trapped in a lease with the ex-gf.. long story).. and there's a lot of arguing and crap. Now, it seems I've been using poker as an escape, which has been throwing me off of my game.

I guess my question is... what is the best way to deal with life tilt when playing poker?

I know the reasonable answer is probably just to get out of this situation, lol.. but I'm sure there will be other forms of life tilt that will effect my poker game in the future.. that's pretty much the biggest problem I've had in my poker game. I can deal with tilting during a poker game.. I don't really tilt that often.. but when I'm being affected personally in life situations.. it does affect my poker game.

Just getting out of the situation is the easy answer. There's always the possibility for shitty situations to happen in life and my theory is better to learn how to deal with them than not. If you can keep a pretty decent mindset and play good poker in your current situation, not only will it help you now obviously, but it's a skill you can take with you the rest of your life.

Basically what you want to is create a routine before and after your sessions so your escape can be are real one and not have life infecting it. You are in essence trying to create a bubble just around poker. Here's a few ideas how:

Before
1) If possible start this 30-45min before. If not practically possible to go that long - do as much as you can.
2) Spend a few minutes writing out notes about what's pissing you off or getting you upset, etc with the life stuff. Whether bullet points or paragraphs is up to you. The idea is that you're getting the problems that are weighing on your mind that day out of your head, putting them down on paper, and putting them aside for now.
3) Make a really clear decision that this is your time for poker. It's yours, period. So enjoy.
4) With the time you have left, begin to start focusing towards poker and make it fun. Throw some music on, chat with some poker friends, come to cards chats, etc.
5) You also can review some hands, set some goals for the session, or review the areas of your game your working on.
6) If at any time, any negative thoughts about the life situation come up that you can't shake - write it down with the other stuff, and refocus.

After
1) When your done, even if poker when poorly, look for something positive to take from it. Not positive for the sake of positive, something that's real.
2) Then if you want to pick your life problems back up, poker is done, so you can.


I'll be interested to know how this goes! Best to you man.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Not sure if this is a good place or not. You never know when you'll pick up another profitable response that will stick with you. I'm primarily a SNG player. Sometimes I play MTT's. I play cash when the bonuses come out. I play profitable cash through and after the bonus but eventually as the profitbale (thanks to the bonus unlock) play wears off my game changes, my expectations change, and I start losing money. Common sense says stick to the SNG's and MTT's unless there are cash game bonuses to be unlocked above and beyond regular cash game profits. But even so I find myself sticking with it longer than I should. There's some ego there and the iron man medals (full tilt) and other such things. The answer is "hey stoopid, don't play cash after you are done unlocking the bonuses" but I can't help myself at least for a little while.

Sounds like you have a hidden goal/motive in cash games. Something that goes against what you know logical and instead has other reasons for it.

Do you know what your motive or reason is for wanting to play at that time. There is a logical reason even if your reason doesn't appear to be logical to you at this time. If you're a winning player you can't be stupid. But what is likely stupid is assuming that it's as simple as just telling yourself not to, when there has to be a reason why you are.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Welcome Jared. The first I heard of you was here years ago from ChuckTs (Clean on Stox) so I knew that you had something of value.


I have perhaps an odd question, but one that's been on my mind lately.

Losing is important to poker; without losing and randomness and chance the bad players wouldn't continue to play. But is there an attitude or approach that we can work towards that enables us to accept and even desire losing simply because we acknowledge that it is so important to the game itself?

Cool to hear you've heard of me through him, he's a great guy.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that you desire losing, but I think I know where you're head is at in thinking about this. If I'm correct, you're asking what the right attitude is to have towards losing?

The question I have for you is, why do you have trouble losing?

The answer that question and I can share more. There isn't a magic bullet that's the best way all players should think about losing. Your post suggests that you understand logically why losing is important, but there's a part of you that won't accept it and I'm guessing reacts negatively when you do. There a wide range of reason for why players react to losing and with a bit more info on it for you, I can help you solve it.

Well, there's all sorts of potential trouble that may come from losing; anger/frustration leading to sub-optimal play and further losing (tilt) and/or bleeding over into non-poker life. Or loss of confidence leading to weak/passive play.

I realized after I posted the question that it may be more of a Tommy Angelo question rather than a Jared Tendler question. It has something to do with me trying to accept and to include losing better as part of the whole experience of playing poker. I suspect that I deal better with losing than many poker players but I also feel that there is further that I can achieve in terms of integrating losing (and winning, for that matter) into a whole integrated experience.

The first part of your answer here is absolute gold if you're looking to be able to handle losing better. If those were all gone and not issues, losing wouldn't be a problem.

I'm not suggesting that solving those issues are easy. Like anything else complex it requires regular work, the right information, experience, etc, in order to improve. I see it happen everyday, so I know it can be done. I can give general comments if you'd like, but my preference is always to give answers specific to you, since there are many reasons why losing would cause tilt and confidence problems. If you'd like specifics just describe the pattern in more detail. Some suggested questions.. what thoughts come to mind when your losing? How long does it take to affect you? What happens away from the table? What are the confidence probs?

 

[Jared Tendler]

Great reply, and there is so much to think about here that I put off replying for a few days. I also did a bit of reading on your forum at dtb, which put more context around this.

Broadly, when I'm running good, I feel like I'm sitting at the tables with a specific plan of attack, know how to respond to different types of players/table conditions, and feel competent. When I'm running bad, I question my game a lot. It feels very much like the Sun Tzu quote in The Poker Mindset - "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win." I feel like I have some measure of control in the first scenario (control over whether I'm making +Ev moves or not given table conditions), while in the second I feel like I'm "stabbing" at different tactics and playing catchup, trying to find opportunities rather than thinking I have the opportunities mapped out in advance.

I've invested a ton of time, so I have a good deal of self-image tied up in the game, and I'm sure that's having an impact. I have a number of personal goals tied up in the game as well, but I'm reluctant to post them in a public forum.

I realize I haven't directly replied to all the points in your reply, but did want to say thanks for a very thought provoking reply.

Glad you found it helpful! I totally understand the need for keeping personal things private.

Couple more thoughts to chew on.

There is always range in your game - call it player variance. From your absolute best to your absolute worst. This range is real and it exists for every player on the planet. If you were to map this range on a graph - hypothetically charting the quality of your play over a large enough sample - your range would look like a bell curve.

Running bad exposes the back end of your bell curve. In that backend exists fundamental questions that you have about your game. These questions that come to mind - answer them. Usually they are asked retorically in our minds, but seriously write them out and answer them. Logically you know what is correct, but the backend of your range needs to get caught up. The front end is your best play and your best play always includes new things you are learning. The back end represents your worst play and it always includes the old stuff you are trying to improve. You can improve your loss of confidence at this time by answering the legitmate reasons you question your game.

And keep in mind - questioning is a great thing to do. It's how you improve. The likely problem for you is the answer at the time that your running bad is assumed to be negative and without a conscious answer representing what you logically know, that's all the information the back end of your range gets and so it stays biased.

Yw! Wish you well.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Sorry Stu - I just realize I missed your post, I think you responded while I was and went right past it.

If you think the issue is just one related to the number of decisions then I think the answer is pretty straightforward. A lot players (people in general) tend to not think about capacity issues when it comes to the mind, but the mind plays by the same rules as the body. Hard to come up with a perfect example like this in a sport, but lets say you were a goalie in hockey or soccer, or a center in basketball and the was a mad scramble around the goal or hoop. One of those really long ones that seems to go on forever (especially if your the player and certainly for a fan watching). In that moment the goalie/center is exterting a lot of physical energy - and no one would even blink thinking that there adrenaline was jacked up for that time.

Mentally it's the exact same thing - only here your exertion in mental. Thinking requires energy. And when your in a tough spot that is really stretching you beyond what you can comfortably do normally, you're using way more energy. So it makes sense why you would make a few bad calls - it's in this kind of a situation where weaknesses show up.

As for fight/flight response - it is definitely getting triggered. Which means that you have to work hard to recognize when the beats are building and prevent yourself from getting to that point. At that point, your capacity to think goes down dramatically and you fall back on bad instinctual patterns.

Does all this make sense?

Thanks for getting back, I though you might have missed it.

I think it is the volume.

Today I played 6 tables. I have never run so bad!! Flopping sets, getting the money in only to be sucked out on by a bigger set. People calling 4bets with around 1 pot sized bet left and flopping sets! 2 pair on a drawy board.. forget it they have sets! and so on and so on. IF I had KK they either had AA or flopped a set after the money went in!

However with 6 tables it didnt really bother me. I had time to think through my decisions and I was happy that my decisions were for the most part correct.

Other than occasionally muttering "oh FFS!" "I dont believe this" and "why me!!" I can take it in my stride. I dont want to make out that when I get sucked out on I am completely emotionless like a Zen Monk, but it dosent effect me all that much.

So it really seems to be the number of tables is the issue rather than the results at the time.

So what should I do to enable myself to increase the number of tables?

 

[NineLions]

Stu, do you need to play more than 6? Can you do 8, session after session, without a problem? Is getting up to 12, 16, a target of yours?

I ask because getting past 10-12 has never been a goal of mine, but even getting up to 10-12 required a lot of sessions of 6, then of 8. Like a music student learning scales, repetition at one speed, then faster next week, then faster next week.