No HUD No Problem

[Poker Orifice]

HUDs should be outlawed. HUDs are not part of the game of poker. You learn how people play by playing with them. I feel that in MTTS it is extremely important to have. Its late in a tourney I get switched tables. I raise other guy shubs. I have no idea how this guy plays and he knows how I play rite away.
In late stage MTT play where stack sizes are in range of <30bb's.. doubt a HUD is going to make any difference whatsoever. Knowing how to play stack sizes will though.
In your example, how does 'other guy know right away how you play'? If he hasn't been sitting with you on tables then it's not that likely he'll have any hands on you (esp. if it's MTT play). If other guy sees you raise/fold vs. a stack size that you should never be raise/folding with (or against) than yah.. he will probably know how you play right away > aka 'bad'.
If every single person had a HUD do you think there would be a significant diffrence playing 6+tables

Umm.. YES! Do you think a HUD plays poker for you or something?
just a sidenote, for MTT play did you know that alot of the Top HSMTT players never use a HUD?

 

[JOEBOB69]

About 1-2 years ago i went to bat for a guy like OP.I knew he\she misunderstood what a HUD was.I felt every one was riding him\her,i tried to inform this person as to what a tracking software was.Truth is people spout shit off at the mouth miss informed an when they are proven wrong disappear.WV lack of patience is because he deals with this sort of shit over and ove,r with out the OP given one iota of research.

 

[mrmonkey]

While I disagree with OP's sentiment that HUD's shouldn't be a part of online poker, I also dislike the non-constructive posts in this thread. I agree that CC is a great board to be a part of, and the thing that sets it apart from other more active poker boards is the *usual* willingness of members to constructively help newbies and uninformed individuals.

Hey, I'm all for giving flak and witty cynicism to obvious trolls and board regs, but OP is simply expressing his opinion and seems to want to engage in meaningful discussion on the matter.

In any case, some good points about HUDs have been made in the posts above, and in actuality a HUD gives you no more information than you could get yourself with extremely copious note taking. This is why it is not an unfair advantage -- the information a HUD gives you is nothing you couldn't obtain yourself through extremely careful observation. This changes when purchased hand histories come into play -- but those are rightfully outlawed from most sites whereas basic HUDs are not.

Regarding MTT and HUD, it is actually possible to open up several tables which you are not sitting at in the MTT to get reads on opponents in the event you reach the final table and to accumulate some stats on them before actually sitting with them. However, you can and probably should open up tables when the MTT gets down to about 4-5 tables anyways and manually take notes on your opponent even without a HUD -- actually, doing so without a HUD may even be better because HUD stats in such small sample sizes and towards the end of an MTT can give you some really weird stats that might lead you astray.

 

[curly]

HUDs should be outlawed. HUDs are not part of the game of poker. You learn how people play by playing with them. I feel that in MTTS it is extremely important to have. Its late in a tourney I get switched tables. I raise other guy shubs. I have no idea how this guy plays and he knows how I play rite away. Poker sites created these to generate more revenue. If Huds are allowed they should be free and advertised on their website. Just becuase i don't have a few bucks to spare to buy one the guy that has extra money to buy one gets in advantage over me. not fair. richer get rich poorer get poorer. If every single person had a HUD do you think there would be a significant diffrence playing 6+tables

please educate yourself on what a HUD actually does before making wild statements like this.

 

[buster999]

I guess what i was trying to say is that I played for about 3 months and never heard of HUDS or even rake back. I used Pokeredge for the free trial and had i big diifrence in my play. I know understand that PEdge is a data mining software and i thought HEM and PT where the same thing. Yes there is a huge diffrence between these. I think huds and RB everybody should know when they first sign up. I still think people should use their brain instead of tracking software since you cant use tracking devices in live poker. I play micros so HUD might not be that important. What makes everybody think I don't know what a hud is? HUDs are the same thing as Pokeredge accept you have collect the data threw play.

 

[WVHillbilly]

I guess what i was trying to say is that I played for about 3 months and never heard of HUDS or even rake back. I used Pokeredge for the free trial and had i big diifrence in my play. I know understand that PEdge is a data mining software and i thought HEM and PT where the same thing. Yes there is a huge diffrence between these. I think huds and RB everybody should know when they first sign up. I still think people should use their brain instead of tracking software since you cant use tracking devices in live poker. I play micros so HUD might not be that important. What makes everybody think I don't know what a hud is? HUDs are the same thing as Pokeredge accept you have collect the data threw play.

Saying PE is equal to PT3/HEM is like saying using steroids is equal to working hard. It just doesn't equate. Using PE is cheating and it's against the rules of almost all sites. Getting caught using PE will result in your account being banned.

You also can't play live poker in your underwear, should that be banned online as well?

 

[NineLions]

I guess what i was trying to say is that I played for about 3 months and never heard of HUDS or even rake back. I used Pokeredge for the free trial and had i big diifrence in my play. I know understand that PEdge is a data mining software and i thought HEM and PT where the same thing. Yes there is a huge diffrence between these. I think huds and RB everybody should know when they first sign up. I still think people should use their brain instead of tracking software since you cant use tracking devices in live poker. I play micros so HUD might not be that important. What makes everybody think I don't know what a hud is? HUDs are the same thing as Pokeredge accept you have collect the data threw play.

That's where most people's complaints about HUDs come from, without considering that live poker =/= online poker. There is no requirement for them to be exactly the same game. You can't multitable live poker, you can't play Rush Poker live (or at all anymore). It's not required to be the same game.

 

[JOEBOB69]

Found the thread with the guy i tried to take up for.The thing about this subject is it comes up a lot(to much) an people over look the thought that some people starting out have 0 idea what a HUD is.Read this OP.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-software-tools-61/tracker-defense-181230/

 

[_dogmeat]

To be honest, I believe banning HUDs altogether will be good for the game in general. For one, there won't be anymore masstabling nits killing all the action. Come on, you can't pay diligent attention to every hand when playing 6+ tables, can you?

 

[Tangerine 53]

To be honest, I believe banning HUDs altogether will be good for the game in general. For one, there won't be anymore masstabling nits killing all the action. Come on, you can't pay diligent attention to every hand when playing 6+ tables, can you?

Sorry but there are a few misconceptions here:
1) Multi-tabling nits don't kill the action, they actually generate $ for the poker economy.
2) Even without a HUD what makes you think people still can't or won't multitable?
3) Some people can multi-table quite effectively at up to 20 tables or more (not me I hasten to add!). If you come across a multi-tabler who can't then you have an edge over him - exploit it.

 

[buster999]

Saying PE is equal to PT3/HEM is like saying using steroids is equal to working hard. It just doesn't equate. Using PE is cheating and it's against the rules of almost all sites. Getting caught using PE will result in your account being banned.

You also can't play live poker in your underwear, should that be banned online as well?

I know understand that PEdge is a data mining software and i thought HEM and PT where the same thing. Yes there is a huge diffrence between these.
STOP HATING HILLBILLY I didn't say PE is the same as HEM/PT.

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

What makes everybody think I don't know what a hud is? HUDs are the same thing as Pokeredge accept you have collect the data threw play.

Its late in a tourney I get switched tables. I raise other guy shubs. I have no idea how this guy plays and he knows how I play rite away.

This implied that you didn't know what a HUD was

 

[buster999]

This implied that you didn't know what a HUD was

Yes i said i didn't know the diffrence between datamining and HUDS in earlier post. I thought PE was the same as HEM and PT. If they had PE they could see stuff against me that is a total disadvantage. For instance if it says i call %50 on flop and only call less than ten percent on turn. It would be profitable to two barrel me. I know now like I said earlier that PE is datamining and not the same as HEMorPT therfore if sombody had PE in a tourney playing against me i would be at a disadvantage but yes i now know PE is datamining not a HUD. I thought Poker players were observant and took mental notes like you couldn't do with my earlier post. Im guessing your not very observant and just hope your HUD will give you the answer.

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

I thought Poker players were observant and took mental notes like you couldn't do with my earlier post. Im guessing your not very observant and just hope your HUD will give you the answer.

I've already said that I don't use a HUD so I make copious player notes instead, but maybe you weren't observant enough to pick up on that. You asked what made everybody think you didn't know what a HUD is, so I've told you what made them think that. Maybe it's about time you let it drop now

 

[buster999]

I agree i have heard all I neaded to hear. Stupid thread. Nobodys understands where i was trying to go with this. I still totally agree with myself that HUDS gives an advantage to the player with one agianst the player without one. Does anybody know where I can get a HUD for live poker? I've said too much......

 

[mrmonkey]

buster, maximizing your edges within the rules of the game against your opponents is what playing winning poker is all about. If you do not use every tool and advantage legally available to you to maximize your edge you are not playing optimal poker. What you're arguing is kind of like saying people who read poker books and basic strategy are cheating because they have an advantage over people who just play any two cards. Basic hand value knowledge and knowledge of odds give me a tremendous advantage over someone who has never sat at a NLHE table... should I be banned from the table because of this?

Here's the thing... a bad poker player with a HUD is still a bad player. They are likely not very observant to begin with, and as a result they likely interpret their HUD statistics incorrectly and make poor plays all over the place. A good player without a HUD is still a good player, but probably not playing optimally if multitabling. A good player WITH a HUD probably has a slight edge over good players without HUDs, particularly when multitabling.

Speaking of multitabling, this is the primary reason why HUDs are used in the first place. One way to maximize your edge and returns is to multitable. Let's say I beat 10nl for a 6bb/100 winrate. I can probably do this without a HUD on one table no problem, and for simple math let's say I get about 100 hands per hour in this way. This equates to $1.20/hr.

Now with a HUD, I can multitable 8 tables with similar observational capacity of one table without a HUD. I also get less bored this way, keeping me more on my A game, and I still take notes and make mental observations about my opponents which no HUD statistic can show me. My winrate of 6bb/100 stays the same, only now I get in 800 hands per hour. My hourly suddenly jumps to $9.60/hr, and with the extra rakeback/hr and site bonuses is probably closer to $12/hr... or about 10x the amount I'd be making by single tabling without a HUD.

If you think you have the mental capacity to observe your opponents while 8-tabling without a HUD, be my guest.

 

[RVladimiro]

Here's the thing... a bad poker player with a HUD is still a bad player. They are likely not very observant to begin with, and as a result they likely interpret their HUD statistics incorrectly and make poor plays all over the place. A good player without a HUD is still a good player, but probably not playing optimally if multitabling. A good player WITH a HUD probably has a slight edge over good players without HUDs, particularly when multitabling.

I'd like to pick up this paragraph because it speaks the truth!

I play because I enjoy the game and I want to get better at it. I want to be a winning player as a measure of my learning. I'm not a grinder, I like to think of myself as a hardworking poker student.

With this said, there was a time where a HUD wasn't any good for me. For instance, having my own stats in the table forced me to play in a predetermined way. That made me a worst player.

I use a HUD, it is quite useful, but I don't depend on it. Actually I play better poker live than online. I believe that my greatest asset is the ability to adapt to the table and my worst flaw is pretty much everything else. I don't need a HUD to adapt, but unlike what is obvious in live play, online we may not get the information we get from facing people. With that said, a HUD allows me a faster adaptation.

Does it give me an edge? Yes! Do I think it would be better if HUDs were not allowed (just HUDs not tracking software)? Yes!

But I bet that the majority of people don't use it right, me included.

 

[absoluthamm]

Here's the thing... a bad poker player with a HUD is still a bad player. They are likely not very observant to begin with, and as a result they likely interpret their HUD statistics incorrectly and make poor plays all over the place. A good player without a HUD is still a good player, but probably not playing optimally if multitabling. A good player WITH a HUD probably has a slight edge over good players without HUDs, particularly when multitabling

mrmonkey, your post hits it right on the head, but I just wanted to extend the bolded above. There is a huge fish that I am constantly playing against. I know he has a HUD because he is always spouting off numbers about how other people at the table are playing(ie. "I called you because you are a playing 74% of hands preflop and raising 54%, so blah blah blah"), pretty much telling everyone that he has tracking software. So even though he has tracking software and uses it, he still plays with a VPIP of 56% and a PFR of 48% himself(and is down about 100 buy-ins over the 10k or so hands I have on him), which if you know about poker, you'd know that that is terrible for full ring. So this pretty much shows that tracking software with a HUD does not come even close to guaranteeing that you're going to be even a marginally winning player.

 

[RVladimiro]

"I called you because you are a playing 74% of hands preflop and raising 54%, so blah blah blah"

If he uses a HUD, he's a pro! In this case a pro fish.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I agree i have heard all I neaded to hear. Stupid thread. Nobodys understands where i was trying to go with this. I still totally agree with myself that HUDS gives an advantage to the player with one agianst the player without one. Does anybody know where I can get a HUD for live poker? I've said too much......

I don't use a HUD. I'm a winning player (not HUGE.. but definitely 'winning'). I can multi-table 10 tourneys but am more comfortable with ~6-8 (< I feel I can play optimally with this many). Cash tables (albeit micro limits) I will play 12-15+ tables (w/o HUD) & am not typically playing like a multi-tabling NIT. Find it easy to exploit many diff player 'types' & individuals while doing so. Sure it'd be more profitable for me to be using a HUD (esp. while playing Cash tables, MTT.. meh.. not so much imo), but there'd also be a decent amount of time I'd need to invest in working with a HUD to actually even make it profitable for me to use.

Some trivia for ya (so you don't have to try to make the claim > HUDs are no fair!! wahh): A handful of online HighStakes MTT players who've been ranked #1 in the world, do not use a HUD.

 

[_dogmeat]

I have kinda mixed feelings about HUDs. Sure I use one (albeit I don't use it as much as I used to, mostly to just check things I'm unsure about and are somewhat rare, like 3bet freq) and sure I agree w/ the fact that you should be using every single thing that gives you an advantage and doesn't get your account blocked.

The thing is, the benefit of HUDs is kinda one-sided. What I mean by this is, only somewhat good players can actually benefit from a HUD. Bad players will either use it right and still play bad or misuse it altogether. So, you see where I'm going w/ this? The better players get better and the bad players (probably) get worse.

It creates an unbalanced ecosystem where the bad players feel like prey and begin starting threads like this one. It creates a cold and robotic environment where the fish isn't getting enough value for their money. No one is chatting w/ them because they're sitting @ a table full of MTTing nits that have found them using table select software. They simply get annoyed that no one wants to gambooool w/ them, or when someone does, they're usually against a better hand. Therefore they get bored of online poker and just go to gamble at the local casino. **** that online bullshit.

@PokerOrifice I also don't see how you can play even decent poker @ more than 4 tables w/o a HUD. Either you're a superhuman or there's something wrong with me. I just can't see how you can pick up any reads at all. Just... no words for this, really. Maybe 6 or 8 tables max. But 15+, come on man.

At any rate, I think too many people overuse their HUD. They start playing lots of tables just because "I have a HUD, I know everything". They don't focus nearly enough on picking up reads and exploiting their opponents. They're just looking @ numbers and making simple plays off of that. At least they're making money 56 tabling, right? What a joke.

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

@PokerOrifice I also don't see how you can play even decent poker @ more than 4 tables w/o a HUD. Either you're a superhuman or there's something wrong with me. I just can't see how you can pick up any reads at all. Just... no words for this, really. Maybe 6 or 8 tables max. But 15+, come on man.

Superhuman

 

[fletchdad]

Superhuman

ya ever wonder what Batman took up after retiring???


POKER!

(We are on to ya PO)

 

[swingro]

Lol actually i saw videos of players playing 24 tables. There is a different aproach and table ninja is a good asset for this. I did not see them tile tables or cascade. Simply the windows pop up in front and they just move the tables of interest to the left or right while they play. First of all they mostly play premiums. Their VPIP is small. Second they do not play for actuall big profit but for rakeback or points (like pokerstars). This is their strategy. Small ROI almost zero but a lot of points or rakeback. But to reach that lvl they first mastered solid poker play. Do not think those players will not kick your a..s hard if they play only 3-4 tables.
Actually i think i saw Blackrain from Drag The bar playing 12 tables. And he said that his ROI when multitable is verry small . Compared to that he said that his winrate at 4 tables is incredibly high and he actually thinking a lot if to mass multitable or stick to 4 tables and go up next lvl in blinds.
Anyway. The best players in the world do not multitable more than 4-5.. max 8 (I think Elky is playing 16 tables max) But they go up to the next lvl of blinds because the profit they make is much bigger than what Supernova Elite from Pokerstars or rakeback from FT has to offer.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Actually i think i saw Blackrain from Drag The bar playing 12 tables. .

From the BlackRain vids. I've watched, if you listen carefully to what he's saying > it's not profitable for him to be playing 12 tables while making a video & is unable to comment on play very well with soooo many tables. Much better to just play ~4tables for making vids. (pretty sure he's always playing at least 12tables, guessing more like 20.. but he keeps 'hide from player search' on