What do you think?

[cool3390]

What do you think about this I've heard two opinions.

Somebody goes all in in a tournament say its the first hand.

You have KK.

I've heard if you can call m on AA then you should fold. However you have no history on him so you really can't.

Isn't he as likely to have QQ or any pocket hands down to 22's at that point?

That would be seem like a 50 /50 for you between QQ and AA but the possibility that he could have any low pocket pair or maybe even something like AK is also there.

What do you think?

I've heard of course call

I've also heard don't risk your tournament life on a coin flip.

Both by professionals one being Doug Polk I believe but I can't remember the other professional

 

[57noona]

Your hand KK isn't a coin flip at all. KK vs AA are about 20% to 80%. KK vs AK is about 66% to 33% . KK vs weaker pair is about 80% to 20%. KK are never in a coin flip spot that I can find. If you don't know your opponent than I say you should call all the time. There is only one hand out there that is beating your KK. If you happen to be up against AA well I hope you hit a two outer on them and you punish that player for going all in on the first hand.

 

[cool3390]

Your hand KK isn't a coin flip at all. KK vs AA are about 20% to 80%. KK vs AK is about 66% to 33% . KK vs weaker pair is about 80% to 20%. KK are never in a coin flip spot that I can find. If you don't know your opponent than I say you should call all the time. There is only one hand out there that is beating your KK. If you happen to be up against AA well I hope you hit a two outer on them and you punish that player for going all in on the first hand.

I might be wrong about the coin flip.

Maybe that's any pocket pair vs AK and AQ?

But I figured him having AA or QQ the chances were 50/50 but then I started thinking not really because he could have any pocket pair

Its hard being the first hand though lol.

I guess try to see the flop?

 

[Twisterman]

Every big tournament you hear about someone busting in one of the first hands with AA, So if you get KK, you are the one busting him. :-D

But no there is no reason to risk everything in one hand like that. Even if he has AK or lower pair, you still lose some of the times. And with the lowest blinds you don't get much extra equity anyways. That being said, this is only when you play a freezeout tourney - if you can rebuy you call every day of the week. IMO

 

[Guernica1974]

AA

in big tournaments (or what i consider big for my bankroll) i basically never go all in preflop!

AA i normally do but if 3-4 players all in i just fold - better build stack and allin only later in tournament and preferable vs a player i can loose to without going out.

players going all in with blinds like 1/50 of beginning stack not worth playing even with KK or AK

 

[Boston10111]

You’re not gonna win the tournament on your first hand so there is no reason you have to call a shove or do it yourself with KK.

Sometimes I’ve called, but honestly the smart play is to fold. You’re gonna see 300 more hands and probably another KK or AA that you can shove with later on before you cash. In micros people will shove with QJs on the first hand and then it really is a coin toss for your tourney life.

Feeling good and want to be ballsy. Call the shove and good luck. Want to play smart and make it to FT better to fold a shove that will knock you out

 

[Krypton173]

Depends on how many BBs you have, do you have info on the guy, is the MTT a rebuy? Whats the Buyin? I personaly would never fold KK preflop under 150BBs and in a $1-$25 buy-in.

 

[yoejslattery]

The only hand you are behind to is AA, otherwise you are a significant favorite. If you are not going to put your money in with those odds then I don't know when you will.

 

[CptRunBad]

I think stack sizes play a large part in this decision.

 

[57noona]

Depends on how many BBs you have, do you have info on the guy, is the MTT a rebuy? Whats the Buyin? I personaly would never fold KK preflop under 150BBs and in a $1-$25 buy-in.

The only hand you are behind to is AA, otherwise you are a significant favorite. If you are not going to put your money in with those odds then I don't know when you will.

I tired telling him this. I agree with both of these posts. I don't know where these people are getting the fact that KK can be a coin flip? Take a look at the Odds Calculator if you don't believe me.

 

[cool3390]

Depends on how many BBs you have, do you have info on the guy, is the MTT a rebuy? Whats the Buyin? I personaly would never fold KK preflop under 150BBs and in a $1-$25 buy-in.

No its the first hand in the tournament. No info o. Players.

It didn't happen to me. I mean I'm sure it has but I can't remember the last time. Not the very first hand I'm saying.

But I was just wondering everybody's thoughts

 

[cool3390]

I tired telling him this. I agree with both of these posts. I don't know where these people are getting the fact that KK can be a coin flip? Take a look at the Odds Calculator if you don't believe me.

Lol I didn't say you were wrong lol.

But I've heard the term coin flip used when mentioning these hands.

Maybe its a coin flip when 2 other players with one of those strong hands calls you? I'm not sure.

I haven't been studying like I should but when I come across the videos ill let you know what it was.

I'm not doubting your odds knowledge lol

 

[cool3390]

The only hand you are behind to is AA, otherwise you are a significant favorite. If you are not going to put your money in with those odds then I don't know when you will.

I can't argue with that but there are times when pros do fold the hand.

I think one good rule of thumb is if its 2-3 people going all in its a good idea to sit out.

One all in I agree with you pretty much to a degree.

I need to find the videos I'm talking about but the point they were making is play harder on the connected flop with a monster instead of all in preflop because anything can happen.

 

[Guernica1974]

variance of outcome

basically it is option prizing and similar to an Down-and-Out call option.

if you loose hand you loose all - if you win hand you got marginally higher probability to get in the money/win tournament

so expected value on playing KK putting other guy on AK or AA is 43% vs 57% (close to a coin flip, if you consider more hands or only AA doesnt matter since value actually derive from option value)

that means you got 57%of loosing all and 43% of doubling but your probability of winning the tournament or getting in the money with a beginning stack double the size of everyone else is only increasing very marginal.

in reality expected value of playing first three hands in any tournament is close to zero - so playing allin with your KK in first round - you just reduced your equity with 57%!

actually the first many hands you shouldnt be going all in preflop - only after flop and you know you got a hand its worth it due to the option value of just being in the tournament

this goes for normal tournaments with more than 500 players (maybe smaller amounts of players)

but yeah if on freeroll and smaller buyin you just sometime go for that action and pursuing the ultra aggressive style and try bully the table with your stack - just for the fun of it and you know you are doing it right when players start swearing at you and calling you fish after you fifth all in and you are five times the beginning stack after 10 mins 😀

but the optimal play on KK preflop allin is fold in the first full round of play of the tournament!

 

[B1961579]

First hand of the tournament? Odds of him having AA aren't good. I say call. Hopefully it's just the two of you, and KK holds up to his smaller pocket pair.

 

[0546474]

a very difficult decision on the one hand you have 100 big blinds and risking everything with only one pair is not very reasonable on the other hand it is difficult to throw such good hands, but I still prefer to play with combinations - set, straight or flush at the beginning of the tournament !!!

 

[777jeton777]

how cool it is to think smart here on the forum))) but in fact I am 100% sure that no player will fold his hand to KK before the flop. I will say more, many will not throw off the KK even if they knew that the enemy had AA hand. throwing off your strong hand in time is the problem with most games. for freerolls I just do not say anything.

 

[Kevin Stout]

Personally speaking, any all in pre flop is gambling. I try never to do it unless I’m short stacked. I have folded KK and AA pre flop early in tournaments. The risk vs reward is too low. I try to remind myself, there is always so much action early on, your good hands will absolutely get paid. They call the pros grinders for a reason.

 

[neptun1914]

In the beginning of tournament you are deep stacked so even with KK you are risking your tournament life. Even if you double up it is not something which guarantees you good performance at later stage. That's the reason why most people will not go allin at first hand with anything different than AA and the chances of your KK are not as good as in normal hand at later stage. Final decision depends on some side factors also. Do you know the player that went allin? Is he loose or tight player? How much you have invested in this tournament and will eventual early bust harm your bankroll substantially? Many things should be considered.

 

[Veritas]

I would never fold KK in the early stage of a Tournament.


Only AA is stronger, with Ax he has 3 Outs and we dominate every PP.
And even if he has AA we have 20% Chance to win.


so the low Chance of him Holding AA + the 20% Chance to win if he has AA justifies a call with KK every time

 

[Joe]

The salient factor here is the gulf between micros and the stakes professionals play.

What buyin levels were the pros referencing, their own or micros/freeroll? I suspect the former.

In most tournament stakes being played at the moment, you won't catch me folding KK preflop too often!

 

[sponsor]

Depends on how many BBs you have, do you have info on the guy, is the MTT a rebuy? Whats the Buyin? I personaly would never fold KK preflop under 150BBs and in a $1-$25 buy-in.

Yeah if a small tourney would not fold KK

 

[japg11]

To solve these questions use Equilab, put the hand you want vs a range of the villain and you will answer yourself.

 

[LuisBoaC]

If you can put your opponent on exactly AA then you are dominated and can merrily fold your KK in face of your 1:1 pot odds. But you can never put your opponent on exactly AA, especially first hand in, you can only put him on a range of cards, almost all of which you are beating. So for long-term profitability you must call.
If you've sold all your possessions and are taking a shot at a huge prize in a high-stakes tourney you might want to fold... and improve your bankroll management.

 

[Erickaie]

It really depends, if it was like a 20usd by-in or lower tournament i would probably call, if it was like a 55usd buy i would have to think carefully and also have to consider if it is a bounty tournament wich makes the equity better, coz in bounty builder tourney 99, 1010, QQ and all that is easy shove on his party saying we are playing on a sunday where there slot of tournaments to come, it would be fun to call. So yes id say 75% of the time iml call.