Transitioning from TAG to LAG

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nameless1537

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Hi everyone... it's me again. I am in the process of adopting more of a LAG approach to tournament poker, while steering clear of being maniacal in my play. What makes this approach so interesting to me now is the unpredictability, and the projection of strength that would and (hopefully) invocation of fear. Now, I know that LAG can be good if: (1) table is generally tight and (2) if another LAG player is immediately to my right. I'd probably also play TAG against a maniac on the table until that player gets busted.

I do have questions though. If you get a re-raise from someone who has decided to "stand up to you", what impact does folding have on your table image? Is one fold enough to hurt it, or does it need to be a series of folds that would make you seem weak, and therefore, not deserving of respect in terms of your raises?

And if you have been on a bit of a streak and been getting great hole cards (and playing them), but never had to show your table... would you shift your approach to being more TAG for a couple of rounds, just to "re-earn" the respect of the table? Or do you keep your foot on the gas until someone finally does stand up to you?

And if someone check-raises you, how does that affect your play on the turn or the river? If you don't continue with aggression, do you all of a sudden seem weak and again, vulnerable to bluffs on the turn or river?

Lastly, for those who play a more controlled LAG style, do you find yourselves shifting between LAG and TAG as the tournament progresses (just to keep others off-kilter) or is it really mostly a response to your read of the table?
 
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easy to be comfortable, harder to switch

According to unwritten tourney "rules" a lot of players have discipline, play TAG, until they are forced into LAG. Those are easy rules to follow. You may want to start LAG earlier, maybe as soon as blinds start to rise; to stay ahead of the curve, so blinds alone don't make the decisions for you.

It's a lousy feeling, barely hanging on, even at start of tourney. If the buy-in isn't too much, aggressive play early can work. If nothing else, it can build a different table image, especially if you have a feeling that other players have a good read on your play.
 
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really interesting thread!
when I started playing poker more serious, I figured out how 'scared' and tight I used to Play. once you get rid of that nitty playstyle, you will have deeper runs. folding ITM should never be your Goal. Play for #1
like Amir Vahedi said:
In order to live, you must be willing to die
I can recommand 'Kill Phil' (beginner) and 'Kill Everyone' advanced). some really nice approaches and concepts. this should really help you!
Hi everyone... it's me again. I am in the process of adopting more of a LAG approach to tournament poker, while steering clear of being maniacal in my play. What makes this approach so interesting to me now is the unpredictability, and the projection of strength that would and (hopefully) invocation of fear. Now, I know that LAG can be good if: (1) table is generally tight and (2) if another LAG player is immediately to my right. I'd probably also play TAG against a maniac on the table until that player gets busted.

I do have questions though. If you get a re-raise from someone who has decided to "stand up to you", what impact does folding have on your table image? Is one fold enough to hurt it, or does it need to be a series of folds that would make you seem weak, and therefore, not deserving of respect in terms of your raises?
usally you don't Play a lot of Hands (lets say less than 200) with the same People at the table, so I guess it won't Impact your Image
And if you have been on a bit of a streak and been getting great hole cards (and playing them), but never had to show your table... would you shift your approach to being more TAG for a couple of rounds, just to "re-earn" the respect of the table? Or do you keep your foot on the gas until someone finally does stand up to you?
if I raise every Hand, People will get suspicious. so I try to adjust my range for 2-3 Hands if needed. but if I have Aces 6 times in a row, I bet, reraise, 3bet,... every time

And if someone check-raises you, how does that affect your play on the turn or the river? If you don't continue with aggression, do you all of a sudden seem weak and again, vulnerable to bluffs on the turn or river?
depends on his stats. if he is TAG, I'm cautious. if he is LAG, it could be a semi-bluff with a draw or AK/AQ.

Lastly, for those who play a more controlled LAG style, do you find yourselves shifting between LAG and TAG as the tournament progresses (just to keep others off-kilter) or is it really mostly a response to your read of the table?
in my opinion, playing TAG is only useful in the early stage with 100bb+
later on their is no Point in playing tight and wait for premium Hands only. in the Micro stakes, Aggression Pays off, especially in mid/late stage!
all your Questions are kinda situational, there is no Right answer for it but I tried to give you some answers in the Quote

It's a lousy feeling, barely hanging on, even at start of tourney. If the buy-in isn't too much, aggressive play early can work
if the buy-in affects your playstyle, you should Play lower stakes.
 
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According to unwritten tourney "rules" a lot of players have discipline, play TAG, until they are forced into LAG. Those are easy rules to follow. You may want to start LAG earlier, maybe as soon as blinds start to rise; to stay ahead of the curve, so blinds alone don't make the decisions for you.

It's a lousy feeling, barely hanging on, even at start of tourney. If the buy-in isn't too much, aggressive play early can work. If nothing else, it can build a different table image, especially if you have a feeling that other players have a good read on your play.
This is the strategy that I've historically relied on, to somewhat decent results. It works well when you hit a decent hand in the beginning, but if not... then I end up getting blinded away until my M/CSI is south of 10 and I am "forced" to go LAG. Many of the times, I might win on an all-in plan on a coinflip, and then continue... but it's not that great.

Nowadays, all of the tourneys at PStars seems to start off with an ante, so the point in which I am "forced" to go LAG comes sooner... and well, it seems they have achieved their goal of getting more action in at the beginning.

TBH, I don't like being forced to go LAG and would rather choose when to execute these strategies. So I'd rather small-ball my way to a decent stack (to stay above the average stack) than to always play behind the 8-ball... hence this thread. I guess I want to have a bit more control over my game and if I end up busting out a little early, it's really no big deal... there's always another one. I just want to play LAG well.

really interesting thread!
when I started playing poker more serious, I figured out how 'scared' and tight I used to Play. once you get rid of that nitty playstyle, you will have deeper runs. folding ITM should never be your Goal. Play for #1
like Amir Vahedi said:
I can recommand 'Kill Phil' (beginner) and 'Kill Everyone' advanced). some really nice approaches and concepts. this should really help you!

all your Questions are kinda situational, there is no Right answer for it but I tried to give you some answers in the Quote


if the buy-in affects your playstyle, you should Play lower stakes.
So yes, I have "Kill Everyone" but I might consider getting "Kill Phil" -- would you recommend that? I was under the impression that "Kill Phil" will have a lot of redundancies from other poker books I've read (I was a strong adherent to Harringon on Hold'em... but it seems the style he advocates is a bit too tight in this day and age).

Re: Table image... it's true... we might not play enough with the same table for the table to get a real beat on us... but I know when I play, I usually have an idea of who is playing loose or tight, and aggressive vs. passive... and that impression shifts over the course of the game. Is it too much to expect that others are doing the same with me, especially at the micro stakes table? If I see someone to my left that is playing aggressively and frequently, I would likely tighten up and then wait for a decent hand to win. But if there is a LAG to my right, I might tighten up my range but still try to maintain some aggression. All this to say... I am expecting that my table image is being assessed right off the bat. It is too much to expect that this is happening at micro stakes tourneys?

I think this will all be a learning process for me, and I'll be experimenting a fair bit as I continue to play tourneys at the micro tables.

Thanks for the responses so far! More suggestions welcome!
 
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Hi everyone... it's me again. I am in the process of adopting more of a LAG approach to tournament poker, while steering clear of being maniacal in my play. What makes this approach so interesting to me now is the unpredictability, and the projection of strength that would and (hopefully) invocation of fear. Now, I know that LAG can be good if: (1) table is generally tight and (2) if another LAG player is immediately to my right. I'd probably also play TAG against a maniac on the table until that player gets busted.

I do have questions though. If you get a re-raise from someone who has decided to "stand up to you", what impact does folding have on your table image? Is one fold enough to hurt it, or does it need to be a series of folds that would make you seem weak, and therefore, not deserving of respect in terms of your raises?

And if you have been on a bit of a streak and been getting great hole cards (and playing them), but never had to show your table... would you shift your approach to being more TAG for a couple of rounds, just to "re-earn" the respect of the table? Or do you keep your foot on the gas until someone finally does stand up to you?

And if someone check-raises you, how does that affect your play on the turn or the river? If you don't continue with aggression, do you all of a sudden seem weak and again, vulnerable to bluffs on the turn or river?

Lastly, for those who play a more controlled LAG style, do you find yourselves shifting between LAG and TAG as the tournament progresses (just to keep others off-kilter) or is it really mostly a response to your read of the table?


What I'm thinking when I see this at my tournament table:

When you fold to a 3-bet for the first time - it does bring you down a notch on the TAG line. Those that are paying attention will see it as a possible chink in the armor. And possibly lead them to better characterize your opening range.

I know that when I notice this I will look to see if it happens with that same player again. And certainly 3-betting is a move that has worked against your range...So I 'm keeping that in mind also.

I'm always open to re-evaluating the way a player is playing at the table.

Good luck !
 
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What I'm thinking when I see this at my tournament table:

When you fold to a 3-bet for the first time - it does bring you down a notch on the TAG line. Those that are paying attention will see it as a possible chink in the armor. And possibly lead them to better characterize your opening range.

I know that when I notice this I will look to see if it happens with that same player again. And certainly 3-betting is a move that has worked against your range...So I 'm keeping that in mind also.

I'm always open to re-evaluating the way a player is playing at the table.

Good luck !


This is exactly the kind of thing I’m looking for. Thanks, Poker_Mike! Now, when you say that it brings me down a notch I the TAG line, is it to say that you’d think that I’m playing looser than originally thought? And is that necessarily a bad thing? Or does LAG work best when people see you as TAG?

My other question is that if you open the betting pre flop on the lower end of your range, how would you handle a 3-bet. Interested in the thinking process over resulting action. I have thought about going all in after the 3-bet, but I can only really do that if I have top 5% hole cards. Calling seems ok... but if it’s not that early in the tournament, calling that bet might make me pot-committed, so going all-in no matter what the card in next round would seem like a very likely play.

Assuming I survive that game... Would you tighten up slightly (narrow the range slightly) in future rounds or would you continue with same range and continue with aggression?

Curious about the mindset of a decent LAG player...
 
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This is exactly the kind of thing I’m looking for. Thanks, Poker_Mike! Now, when you say that it brings me down a notch I the TAG line, is it to say that you’d think that I’m playing looser than originally thought? And is that necessarily a bad thing? Or does LAG work best when people see you as TAG?

My other question is that if you open the betting pre flop on the lower end of your range, how would you handle a 3-bet. Interested in the thinking process over resulting action. I have thought about going all in after the 3-bet, but I can only really do that if I have top 5% hole cards. Calling seems ok... but if it’s not that early in the tournament, calling that bet might make me pot-committed, so going all-in no matter what the card in next round would seem like a very likely play.

Assuming I survive that game... Would you tighten up slightly (narrow the range slightly) in future rounds or would you continue with same range and continue with aggression?

Curious about the mindset of a decent LAG player...


So, I am currently NOT lag. And what caught my attention was your title about transitioning.

But, to keep the conversation going....imagine your in a hand and you isolate preflop and c-bet the flop and then another barrel on the turn gets your opponent to reluctantly fold.

Two or three hands later you are 3-bet preflop and you fold. Or you cbet on the flop and opponent raises and you fold.

This will prompt the villain that folded to you on the turn a few hands ago to rethink whether his pocket 44 were good. And he/she will evaluate and re-evaluate. As they should.

What I've seen about "good lags" is that they don't let up. They keep going until they have all the chips on the table or they are out. Literally it is like they are always on tilt!

I don't mind shifting gears. Especially if you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar! Mmmmm…...coookieeeess! lol

Personally my attitude about table image is to abuse it. If you are perceived as LAG then you can captalise on good TAG play and vice-versa.

But your question about when does your table image change and by how much and how should that affect your range, etc.....the question is interesting but I refer you back to abusing your image - basically to create deception and win a big pot!

I don't have a chart to point to with respect to changing your range after folding once to a 3-bet or after folding twice....would be interesting.

And, you may not have much of a choice on range. Card dead for an hour only leaves LAG play and you better have the nuts or bet enough to motivate your villain to fold.


Your comment about being pot-committed only reflects that you don't have a large enough chip stack to run a successful LAG line in a no-limit game. That is a sperate issue.
Good luck !
 
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So, I am currently NOT lag. And what caught my attention was your title about transitioning.

But, to keep the conversation going....imagine your in a hand and you isolate preflop and c-bet the flop and then another barrel on the turn gets your opponent to reluctantly fold.

Two or three hands later you are 3-bet preflop and you fold. Or you cbet on the flop and opponent raises and you fold.

This will prompt the villain that folded to you on the turn a few hands ago to rethink whether his pocket 44 were good. And he/she will evaluate and re-evaluate. As they should.

What I've seen about "good lags" is that they don't let up. They keep going until they have all the chips on the table or they are out. Literally it is like they are always on tilt!

I don't mind shifting gears. Especially if you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar! Mmmmm…...coookieeeess! lol

Personally my attitude about table image is to abuse it. If you are perceived as LAG then you can captalise on good TAG play and vice-versa.

But your question about when does your table image change and by how much and how should that affect your range, etc.....the question is interesting but I refer you back to abusing your image - basically to create deception and win a big pot!

I don't have a chart to point to with respect to changing your range after folding once to a 3-bet or after folding twice....would be interesting.

And, you may not have much of a choice on range. Card dead for an hour only leaves LAG play and you better have the nuts or bet enough to motivate your villain to fold.


Your comment about being pot-committed only reflects that you don't have a large enough chip stack to run a successful LAG line in a no-limit game. That is a sperate issue.
Good luck !


Good points indeed. I’ve always thought that a good LAG player knows when to lay down his hand when he’s beat. If I am fighting over a stack against a TAG (based on my read of the table), and he re-raises me... I gotta assume he has a premium hand to do so. And unless I have something close to the nuts, I’m folding. Now, I’m talking post-flop, mind you. When I’m on a table and dude is consistently aggressive when in and is winning pots, and then laying down the occasional hand, depending on the texture of the flops, I usually respect that player more and I’m like “be careful”. Whenever I join a tourney, I’m hoping that any LAG is sitting to my right and not my left.

Last night, I played a micro stakes SNG MTT, and was fairly successful in that I was able to build a decent stack without the benefit of really great hole cards or times that I hit anything in the flop. I rarely showed down and small-balled my way up. Times that I saw the flop, I’d often throw out probe bets (not all the time though... would check/fold depending on texture of the flop) that are less than half of the pot just to see where I was and majority of time, most other players folded to me. I find it important to throw out bets just to know where I stand... and how others react to aggression gives me good information that I will often use later. When I throw out probe bets, the mindset is that I’m buying information and if I win the pot, it’s a great bonus.

By the time I got premium hands, I had a fairly respectable stack and sadly didn’t get challenged but got people to fold on some 3-bets because I had fold equity... something I wouldn’t have if I was playing TaG and hole cards were crap. There’s something that changes in my mindset once I start stealing pots, and I am more able to lay down cards when I need to. It’s kind of flexibility in my game that I really didn’t have when I purely played TAG and forced to play LAG when the combination of a dwindling stack and increasing blinds.

In the end, having fold equity on my side with a stack that I didn’t get from winning on premium hands allows me to attack the table better. When I was playing mostly TAG, I found it harder to lay down decent hole cards because I was too attached to them, and then not having fold equity when I finally got decent hole cards led to me busting out on bad beats.

Anyway, no major questions here. But would love to read what you or others have to say about the thought process of a decent LAG (or someone who plays TAG up against a decent LAG)... Or tips would be good. Still learning.
 
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Poker_Mike

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Good points indeed. I’ve always thought that a good LAG player knows when to lay down his hand when he’s beat. If I am fighting over a stack against a TAG (based on my read of the table), and he re-raises me... I gotta assume he has a premium hand to do so. And unless I have something close to the nuts, I’m folding. Now, I’m talking post-flop, mind you. When I’m on a table and dude is consistently aggressive when in and is winning pots, and then laying down the occasional hand, depending on the texture of the flops, I usually respect that player more and I’m like “be careful”. Whenever I join a tourney, I’m hoping that any LAG is sitting to my right and not my left.

Last night, I played a micro stakes SNG MTT, and was fairly successful in that I was able to build a decent stack without the benefit of really great hole cards or times that I hit anything in the flop. I rarely showed down and small-balled my way up. Times that I saw the flop, I’d often throw out probe bets (not all the time though... would check/fold depending on texture of the flop) that are less than half of the pot just to see where I was and majority of time, most other players folded to me. I find it important to throw out bets just to know where I stand... and how others react to aggression gives me good information that I will often use later. When I throw out probe bets, the mindset is that I’m buying information and if I win the pot, it’s a great bonus.

By the time I got premium hands, I had a fairly respectable stack and sadly didn’t get challenged but got people to fold on some 3-bets because I had fold equity... something I wouldn’t have if I was playing TaG and hole cards were crap. There’s something that changes in my mindset once I start stealing pots, and I am more able to lay down cards when I need to. It’s kind of flexibility in my game that I really didn’t have when I purely played TAG and forced to play LAG when the combination of a dwindling stack and increasing blinds.

In the end, having fold equity on my side with a stack that I didn’t get from winning on premium hands allows me to attack the table better. When I was playing mostly TAG, I found it harder to lay down decent hole cards because I was too attached to them, and then not having fold equity when I finally got decent hole cards led to me busting out on bad beats.


Anyway, no major questions here. But would love to read what you or others have to say about the thought process of a decent LAG (or someone who plays TAG up against a decent LAG)... Or tips would be good. Still learning.

Sounds to me like you have a handle on how to balance your game in a good way. If I were at your table all day - I might have difficulty on putting you on an accurate range (which is what you want).

I also like to bet for information. Even though some players tell me they will never put more money in the pot if they think they are behind. I just log that info from those players for future reference lol.

Like I mentioned - some of the good LAGs that I know bet like wild tilt monkeys. They seem to have no regard for what their opponent holds. And, I'm considering that some of them are "incapable" of putting their opponents on accurate ranges.

But I think that a "great" LAG can make preflop folds when they know they are beat. This is generally how I try to play when I am a bigstack in a tournament.

Just because one opens w QJo UTG+1 but is then shoved on by a shortstack who has been patient, and then reshoved by the SB - doesn't mean you have to call just because you are getting some kind of pot odds (can you really be much less than 33% preflop?) LOL

Pessimistic thinking is that QJ is badly beaten by one of those players and the other has QJ dominated by AQ, AJ or KQs But that is usually close to reality.

I remember thinking WTF is this LAG, playing QJ like they are AA, really thinking? That hand crippled him badly and I could hear the door squeaking open to the parking lot for him....LOL

Different LAG but similar situation - LAG calls off 95s - but wins that hand to knock one player out and cripple the other one....and apologizes to the player leaving the table....lol
9-high !!

I like to play premium hands against some of these LAGs because they usually have nothing anyways. Sometimes I let them drive the action but sometimes - especially if I am the original raiser - I will lead all the betting - trying to calculate what the biggest bets they will call. Maybe throw in a check on the turn for deception?

I do have one buddy who battles LAGs with even looser play....he tries to outLAG the LAG? That style has not worked well for me.

Good luck !
 
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So yes, I have "Kill Everyone" but I might consider getting "Kill Phil" -- would you recommend that? I was under the impression that "Kill Phil" will have a lot of redundancies from other poker books I've read (I was a strong adherent to Harringon on Hold'em... but it seems the style he advocates is a bit too tight in this day and age).
no Need to read Kill Phil then, it's some really Basic stuff for Beginners. I only read it because it was recommanded to read for Kill Everyone.
Kill Everyone is the more interesting one



Re: Table image... it's true... we might not play enough with the same table for the table to get a real beat on us... but I know when I play, I usually have an idea of who is playing loose or tight, and aggressive vs. passive... and that impression shifts over the course of the game. Is it too much to expect that others are doing the same with me, especially at the micro stakes table? If I see someone to my left that is playing aggressively and frequently, I would likely tighten up and then wait for a decent hand to win. But if there is a LAG to my right, I might tighten up my range but still try to maintain some aggression. All this to say... I am expecting that my table image is being assessed right off the bat. It is too much to expect that this is happening at micro stakes tourneys?

I think this will all be a learning process for me, and I'll be experimenting a fair bit as I continue to play tourneys at the micro tables.

Thanks for the responses so far! More suggestions welcome!

short answer: Yes


Most People are not 'thinking players'. they have no HUD, they don't take notes, they don't know much About odds, ranges, or even Outs. they just Play poker because they enjoy it.
so if someone is not paying Attention to his own Play, why would he Analyse the playstyle of his opponents? they just Play their 2 Cards straight Forward.
therefor I think it could be a mistake to overthink a Hand against those Kind of Player.
but if you Play with a HUD you will see if he is a TAG or LAG, you will know his playstyle even better than he does and can exploit it.
 
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Thanks again for your responses and keeping the conversation alive. Truth is, I’m playing microstakes tourneys just to work out kinks in my play and hoping to play in some low stakes tourneys later when my bankroll affords me the opportunity to try. Until then, I’ll be in a holding pattern while I try to integrate certain plays into my strategy.

So my next question: what role does calling play for a TAG/LAG. I’ve always felt that the best plays are to either raise or fold... and probably do one of those two moves about 70% to 80% of the time. I think it’s important to be putting pressure on opponents to act most of the time that you are in a pot and increase fear equity when possible. But there has to be a role for calling, that can be profitable? Are there situations that a call is the “best” play? Perhaps there is a point post flop that pot odds dictate that a call is an acceptable move on a flush or straight draw and better to call than to raise? Or slow playing a monster hand (obviously). What about pre-flop with middle pair with limps or raises/calls ahead of you in late position? Better to 3-bet or simply call and play the flop aggressively if it makes sense?

I definitely don’t want to overthink at this level but I do want play better strategically. And side question: do you ever deliberately take time to respond to a raise just to mess with other players’ minds... even when you know right off the bat what you are going to do? Or is something like that lost on people who are playing low or microstakes poker?
 
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So my next question: what role does calling play for a TAG/LAG. I’ve always felt that the best plays are to either raise or fold... and probably do one of those two moves about 70% to 80% of the time. I think it’s important to be putting pressure on opponents to act most of the time that you are in a pot and increase fear equity when possible. But there has to be a role for calling, that can be profitable? Are there situations that a call is the “best” play? Perhaps there is a point post flop that pot odds dictate that a call is an acceptable move on a flush or straight draw and better to call than to raise? Or slow playing a monster hand (obviously). What about pre-flop with middle pair with limps or raises/calls ahead of you in late position? Better to 3-bet or simply call and play the flop aggressively if it makes sense?

sure, to raise/fold is usally better than calling, but there are a lot of Situations where calling or even limping is fine.

limping: if there are 2-3 limper and I get suited connector, small PP or something like QTs, KTs I don't mind limping behind in the early stage instead of raising and Building an unnecessary big pot with a Hand that doesn't Play very well post flop in a multiway pot. I also limp Monsters like AA/KK from time to time UTG or on the Button/sb to induce a raise and then reraise/shove. works quite well too :D

Calling pre: Same like limping. If I see a raise from EP with 1-2 caller, I call behind with suited connectors or pocket pairs which I Play for set value (22-88/99), KT, QT,... Same like for limping, they don't Play very well multiway in the early stage, therefor I prefer to call instead of raising. Same for slow rolling a Monster.
BB/SB: In the blinds calling is fine to defend some Hands

3b: Your Goal for a 3bet should be to 1) take the pot Right away 2) Play HU or 3) all-in. don't 3b light with something like QQ+ to Keep more than 1 Player in the pot because even premium Hands lose a lot of equity if Played multiway.
for example you Play AA vs KQs vs JJ vs T9s you have 54%; you are still a big favourite to win, but compared to the 80% vs 1 opponnent, you will lose more often. Just a simple example, sorry if this is obvious to you :p

I definitely don’t want to overthink at this level but I do want play better strategically. And side question: do you ever deliberately take time to respond to a raise just to mess with other players’ minds... even when you know right off the bat what you are going to do? Or is something like that lost on people who are playing low or microstakes poker?

Yes! To me a snap call/shove/raise is usally a bluff or the nuts. you don't want to let them know this either way. therefor I Always wait 2-3 seconds or longer to take action, even if I know for sure that I call/fold. But don't 'Hollywood' or slow roll for 30 seconds or something like that :p
also try to search for other Players to see if they are Multitabling (5+ tables). they usally have no time to pay Attention to each table. this can be exploited easily.
 
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TAG or LAG

Hello I consider myself a TAG player but sometimes loosen up my starting hand strategy depending on the feel of the table.
 
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