Tournament stages

[AJantwan]

Defining a tournament stage (early, middle, late) is obviously going to be a little subjective. I've seen it suggested that early is when more than 70% of entrants are still in, late is when there's only 30% left and/or antes start, and middle is what's in between.

Then, when you read poker strategy books they'll tell you how to play early (assuming you have deep stacks), and then they'll break down middle and late based on what your stack size is.

But it seems to me that the real key is your stack size relative to the blinds (and antes). I'm probably not going to play much different in the middle stage vs late stage if I have a 15BB stack. Seems like tournament stage is very secondary. I can see where it comes into play on how your opponents might play. For example, if I had a 15 BB stack and it's early, although I have less fold equity against my 60+BB opponents, it's also the case that they may not want to risk a quarter of their stack in the early stage. But in general, I'm thinking my stack size should have far, far more influence on how I play than the tournament stage... outside of bubble factors, at least.

Thoughts?

 

[gryphon3005]

I certainly agree your stack size is a major influence on your play but, as Einstein said, it's all relative. You actually pointed out the important relationship in the first sentence of your last paragraph "the real key is your stack size relative to the blinds (and antes)". Once you are in the middle stage the rising blinds start becoming a big factor. For example you have a good hand on the button and you're considering a raise but you realize the BB's small stack just got took a hit paying the BB. You have no choice here..you must consider the possibility that the BB will shove on your raise. In the early stages you would expect the BB to fold to your raise.

So , I think there is no way you can separate stack size from the stage level because when the blinds and antes start eating away stacks the anxiety levels also start to rise and affect the thinking of every player at the table regardless of stack size.

 

[freestocks]

Tournament stages factor an average stack size. Being way above or below chips at that stage in tournament is an additional consideration.

 

[mavradal]

There are tournaments where BB increases at a much faster rate, so indeed percentage of players in the game is still the most accurate method.

 

[kraemer]

There are some differences though that might be interesting...
In the early stages almost everone at the table will have about as
many chips as you....

As the MTT goes on there will be much more variance between stacks and so the risk of getting calls / shoves from people with very low or very high stacks rises...

 

[AJantwan]

There are some differences though that might be interesting...
In the early stages almost everone at the table will have about as
many chips as you....

As the MTT goes on there will be much more variance between stacks and so the risk of getting calls / shoves from people with very low or very high stacks rises...

You raise a good point, but it would just make me qualify my original comment and say that stacksize relative to the blinds and relative to other players matters far more than tournament stage...though, yes tournament stage affects stacksize relative to the blind and relative to others, but even so, once I know stacksize relative to the blind and relative to others, I don't need to know what stage it is ( with the exception of knowing when I'm near the bubble.)

 

[AJantwan]

There are tournaments where BB increases at a much faster rate, so indeed percentage of players in the game is still the most accurate method.

The most accurate method for what? For knowing what stage I'm in?

My question isn't about how to determine stage. Rather, I'm questioning whether stage even matters much. Except for the bubble, isn't what really matters your stacksize relative to the blind and relative to others?

 

[xy23]

The most accurate method for what? For knowing what stage I'm in?

My question isn't about how to determine stage. Rather, I'm questioning whether stage even matters much. Except for the bubble, isn't what really matters your stacksize relative to the blind and relative to others?

Stage does matter to me just as well as stack size which is relative to the blind/antes and opponents stack size. It doesn't matter as much if you're sitting on 15 BB's as you said since you only have two moves which is shove or fold. However, you're not obviously not gonna be shoving 15 BB's in the early stage. You're much more likely to shove it when you're in the middle stage/ end stage when blinds/ antes are large enough.
Let's say you double up twice and you're sitting at 60 BB's in middle-late stage. Now it's extremely profitable to start stealing pots because blinds/antes are so big.
Also it's not just the bubble you have to take into account but FTing as well.
That all means the decisions you make at the table is relative to the tournament stage because the stage you're on is relative to how big the blinds/ antes are.

 

[kbolding7]

Stack size and number of blinds is the biggest thing to focus on since that determines a hands playability. I also think though that another thing that is overlooked especially in later stages is the antes how that should effect decisions. Antes really make for a greater sense of urgency in tournaments.

 

[Erpherk]

I think play does change in the different stages, early tournament stages get a lot of wild hands. Mid tournament stage some players lower the range they play. And late i see a lot of tightening up to make the final table and ladder.
I guess it's stack and position based at the end of the day.

 

[foran]

I agree with you the stage of the game depends on your effective stack

 

[NWPatriot]

Stack size relative to blinds/antes and stack size relative to opponents is all important for determining specific play on a specific hand.

I have found that by setting goals for my stack size in a tournament, I can keep the two pieces of information above in context. Goal #1 is to get to 10X my starting stack size. I don't care how fast I do this, but certainly by achieving this goal by the bubble means that I will have the average stack size at the bubble. I would probably not be limping across the bubble line if I have at least 10X original stack. The next goal then is to determine what the average stack size will be at the final table. In a 500 player field, a 10x stack is needed to get to the average of the top 50 players (bubble if 10% paid), and then 50x stack size would be the average stack size of the final table players (10 person tables).

These are your real goals, rather than just keeping pace with the blinds, in my opinion. Once you achieve each goal, you should not be satisfied, but merely moving on to your next goal. This is a way to keep you moving forward, rather than being content with any stack size.

Just one persons strategy.

 

[mavradal]

The most accurate method for what? For knowing what stage I'm in?

My question isn't about how to determine stage. Rather, I'm questioning whether stage even matters much. Except for the bubble, isn't what really matters your stacksize relative to the blind and relative to others?

The most accurate method of judging your current situation, as I said there are tournaments where most players become short stacked quite early in the game.

 

[Millie232]

I call the rebuy/re-entry period "early stages", regardless of how long it is. That's because it's the period of time where people are playing looser to get their stacks as high as possible for later, and therefore their actual gameplay is different. I think some players also tighten up right before the break if there's a big addon, because usually addons are better value for money than a rebuy.

Middle stages for me are usually between the re-entry period and the bubble, or possibly a few places away from the bubble. People are playing "normal" tournament poker here, and therefore you can do the same without altering your play-style. Then, right before the bubble, people tighten up and so you can be aggressive (if you're not short stacked) and pick up some chips for later.

I think there's a bit of contention regarding post-bubble play. For the first few rounds, people usually drop out like flies - these are people who have been short stacked for a while and have been folding every hand in the hopes of getting to the bubble. So for the first 30 or so minutes after the bubble, I'll also play a little tighter than usual, because you can get a good few money jumps by doing this (look at Spraggy in the PSPC who held something like 10k chips for just 2-3 minutes after the bubble and got an extra $10,000 for it). After this period of time, people usually go back to playing normally until they're close to the final table, at which point they either go very tight or hyper aggressive, depending on their stack size.

So I don't really use just "early, middle, late" - my games more go: "early", "middle-normal", "middle-bubble", "late-bubble", "late-normal", "late-final", "late-aggressive".