Technical question AK preflop

devisam

devisam

Enthusiast
Hello.

Tell me, in mtt 8 max, I have 130000 on blinde 1500/3000

I have AK o on the button.
The player just before me limp 3000 with 350000 of stack.
I open at 7500 (2.5x)
The player in small blind shove 15000
Big blind fold.
The initial limp shove 350000.
My question is must I pay? With a little over 40 blinds .....

I call he had 1010. I have bust

Thank you in advance
 
MemphisGrind

MemphisGrind

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Hello.

Tell me, in mtt 8 max, I have 130000 on blinde 1500/3000

I have AK o on the button.
The player just before me limp 3000 with 350000 of stack.
I open at 7500 (2.5x)
The player in small blind shove 15000
Big blind fold.
The initial limp shove 350000.
My question is must I pay? With a little over 40 blinds .....

I call he had 1010. I have bust

Thank you in advance

I'm going to give my opinion here, I am always open to discussion but this is just how I see the hand.

You are in the late stages of the tournament it seems.. is there any ICM involved? Any live reads?

I don't like the way the hand was played prior to the shove. You didn't open to 7500 you 3 bet to 7500 which is small IMO.

The player that open limped was the opener. You have 43 bigs and a limper in front of you with AK on the button..

I generally size my 3 bets larger in position so I would have 3 bet to around 15,000.

When the player calls my shove, and the limp player jams over the top I would ask myself.. has this player limp shoved prior to this? What hands are they limp shoving with?

It's generally only done by top of the range hands.

So I would say, do you want to flip for close to 40bigs AK vs. a range that is generally ahead of us.... probably not. I would fold the hand and note that the player limp shoves and see what hand they are limp shoving to use in the future. That deep of stack you don't need to risk your tournament life with Ace high. IMO
 
Johnson baker

Johnson baker

Rock Star
I was gonna respond but Memphis is already spot on. I see it the same. :icon_thum
 
neverbluff

neverbluff

Rock Star
Is your goal in this tournament to min cash or win? Do you think you could find a better spot to get your money in? If the small blind had 99 would you feel better about calling? 88? It's going to end up being around 55/45 versus an underpair and sometimes they might have AQo or AJo. Winning this flip and having an 80BB stack would set you up to make a very deep run. However, I could find a fold in this spot if I liked the table dynamic and didn't want to flip for my entire stack. I don't think you should fold in this spot very often if you are looking to make deep runs in tournaments.
 
Poker_Mike

Poker_Mike

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Hello.

Tell me, in mtt 8 max, I have 130000 on blinde 1500/3000

I have AK o on the button.
The player just before me limp 3000 with 350000 of stack.
I open at 7500 (2.5x)
The player in small blind shove 15000
Big blind fold.
The initial limp shove 350000.
My question is must I pay? With a little over 40 blinds .....

I call he had 1010. I have bust

Thank you in advance


I like a fold vs. the bigstack here because you are putting so many of your chips at risk.

And, it is just not necessary.

You raised so little on the button - why? It is a perfect feeler bet to fold to big shoves.

You could have called the SB shove. But the bigstack overshove……

Good luck !
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

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I don't fold AK very often preflop in tourneys at under 50bb. I'm probably not folding here unless I have a really good read or strong stats to suggest someone is very nitty, or trappy. AK is a powerhouse and dominates a ton of stuff that shows up and blocks the really scary stuff. I would need a lot more information to find a fold here. I can make this fold vs the right players but as described I think I'm going with the hand. We need a lot of chips to make a run at the top 3 spots and winning flips is one of the main ways we do that in tourneys. what better hand to flip with than AK?

If you want to be a tourney player you need to get very, very comfortable with AK, be happy everytime you see it...and make sweet,sweet love to it.

obviously there are exceptions and there are deep stacked portions of tourneys....but mostly AK is just too good to fold pre in tourneys.
 
L

LongRover

Rock Star
Suited or unsuited, AK, pre-flop, is a drawing hand with which caution should ever be exercised. As hole cards, as I have noted in other writings before this post, they always cause my personal warning lights to flash. Why? Because these top hole cards, meaning AK o or AK s, usually signal high bets and the potential to win or lose a hand, game or tournament. Sound familiar? So, by reason of my personal training, I always remember to read top hole cards backwards, just to remind myself of their real value. For instance, AK o is just that. It is the highest card (A) with the highest non-ace kicker (K). AK s is primarily the same, except it has a bit more value when looking long term since it might become a flush, flop or post flop, whereas AK o theoretically projected would at best probably end up as a straight, also flop or post flop.

However, it is worth noting, that should nothing develop on the flop, should you play that far, meaning neither a flush nor a straight or anything along the lines of high pairs, then any opponent pair – no matter how small - can crush either AK o or AK s. This is something to remember before initiating an all-in or calling (read paying-off) into one. In other words, from any position, it is worthwhile to keep in mind that neither AK s nor AK o equals so much as a pair. So, my typical question would be: “Why would you risk your entire bankroll in a situation where you only have high cards?” And, “Does that even make sense from any position?”

AK s hole cards have a 65-67 win percentage and AK o hole cards have a win percentage of 63-64. This means that AK s will win 6,500 to 6,700 times out of every 10,000 hands played, and that AK o will win 6,300 to 6,400 times out of every 10,000. Conversely, AK s as hole cards will lose 33-35% of the time and AK o will lose 36-37%, meaning the former loses 3,300 to 3,500 times out of every 10,000 hands played and the latter loses 3,600 to 3,700 out of every 10,000. So, with probability in mind, a lot of cards may be in play with higher win, and lower loss, percentages. Again, these are mathematical gaming factors worth considering before taking any actions from which there is no return, such as the commitment of your entire stack.

If it is early in a tournament, and if blinds are low, it may seem reasonable to call with AK o or AK s from any position, and to see the flop, especially if at least some EP opponents playing before you have folded. Still, it must be considered, being in EP or MP, LPs have yet to play, and if a re-raise from any LP follows, the situation significantly changes. The point is that these are hole cards with lots of possibilities, especially when someone holding AK o or AK s decides to go all-in. However, in my opinion, going all-in with AK o or AK s while not necessarily mistaken, can be premature. In a situation of positional blindness, many players most likely will fall back upon their past experiences or learning. Huge opponent raises may signal high pairs like AA, KK or QQ rather than other middle pair hole cards such as JJ, TT, 99, 88, 77. Such raises may also mirror one’s own hands with cards such as AK s, AK o, AQ s or AQ o. In other words, the cards in your own hand can be matched or reflected by your opponent or opponents. Knowing this, learning and experience should, and must, influence decisions going forward. Given the foregoing, intuitive players may fold if they interpret an early raise, by any opponent, as meaning any of those possibilities listed above.

Other players may do anything but fold. Why? Generally, although not the best, AK o and AK s are considered good hole cards by many players. But, having these hole cards does not necessarily call for a raise or re-raise pre-flop as some players recommend. If any opponent at the table makes a conservative raise, then only a call is required. If a re-raise from another position follows this conservative raise, then I would seriously consider folding. And, if yet another position plays over the top of a conservative raise and re-raise, then I will most definitely fold because the implication is high pairs like AA, KK or QQ.

So why put your entire hand, game and tournament at risk without even a pair in your hands? Why would you take such a gamble when the whole idea of NLHE is to at least try to eliminate the element of chance (read gambling or a reliance on luck) through the usage of skill and strategy? Without even so much as a pair, you did not have to open with 7,500 chips when a free card was then still a possibility before the 15,000 chip raise by the small blind. When the 3,000 chip limper came over the top of the small blind and shoved all-in with his entire 350,000 chip stack, that action alone should have alerted you that something was afoot because of the implication of high pairs like AA, KK or QQ. Where even a middle or small pair could end your hand, game or tournament, the only thing you reasonably had left to do was to fold, and by folding, take the loss of the 7,500 chips with which you opened, leaving your stack with 122,500 chips minus whatever the ante was. Most importantly, by taking the loss, you still remained alive with many times the big blind in your stack.
 
ammje

ammje

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I think your rol should be for x3 or x4, the BB were very high, so I'm not sure the size, someone with more experience could help us with that.

And on another play, it's a very difficult situation, some players regularly make limp, QQ KK AA to catch someone.

Once I had the opportunity to ask Humberto Brenes, to do with AK? in a situation similar to yours, and he said,''all in and pray''.

Although more than 30 BB I would've thought twice, it depends on the information of the villain, the importance of the tournament etc.

gl :D
 
Last edited:
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

Visionary
Awards
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OP,
a lot of cc members said fold here lmao. Pay attention who said fold and make note to yourself to read their posts only to understand how nits think.

Of course you can not fold here AK, villain limps from CO, which means his range is very wide. That's all you need to know. Also, you raise was very small, so CO could think that you are weak which make call for you even easier. Call 100 out of 100 times.

Also, when someone limps, raise at least 3x please.
 
C

cs_rlewis

Rock Star
Depends on his reshoving range. If its usually 99+ then AK doesn't do too well, probably under 50%.
If villain has you covered and your risking your tournament life then think twice before calling.
 
MemphisGrind

MemphisGrind

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OP,
a lot of cc members said fold here lmao. Pay attention who said fold and make note to yourself to read their posts only to understand how nits think.

Of course you can not fold here AK, villain limps from CO, which means his range is very wide. That's all you need to know. Also, you raise was very small, so CO could think that you are weak which make call for you even easier. Call 100 out of 100 times.

Also, when someone limps, raise at least 3x please.


This is not true. Players limp to re-shove. As I said in my original comment have they done this before. This answer if given would change the range and possibly make it a call. However from unknown you have to evaluate what there range is for a limp reshove, and it’s generally strong. If we had more details about villain we could give more detailed analysis but we don’t.

I hope you all make note of me being a nit.
 
Splitpot88

Splitpot88

Rock Star
OP,
a lot of cc members said fold here lmao. Pay attention who said fold and make note to yourself to read their posts only to understand how nits think.

Of course you can not fold here AK, villain limps from CO, which means his range is very wide. That's all you need to know. Also, you raise was very small, so CO could think that you are weak which make call for you even easier. Call 100 out of 100 times.

Also, when someone limps, raise at least 3x please.

So untrue. The op can fold here and still find a much better spot to get it in. Furthermore, we are all here to learn and for you to call people nits is just not a proper way to respond to opinions that differ from your own.
 
playinggameswithu

playinggameswithu

Legend
FOLD.Too many big blinds up for stakes if it was 25 or less I'd insta shove. If he has a pair he has 57% equity against you. Your opponent at worst has 25% equity. THe hand is a gamble across 5 cards to come. YOU HAVE a very dominate ACE HIGH that is all.

Similar thing happend to me today I knew to fold AK ended in 3rd not bad.
 
joeisi

joeisi

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TT
2.5 is fine since you got position but I normally go for 2.5 plus 1 for every limper.

Looks like scared play by opponent, smells like AK, AQ or some sort of middle of the road pocket pair that does not want to see overcards on flop or miss the flop as they are oop.

Unless there is bubble or pay jump considerations I always go for broke here as they never play AA or KK like this. Got to win your flips to win tournaments.
Hello.

Tell me, in mtt 8 max, I have 130000 on blinde 1500/3000

I have AK o on the button.
The player just before me limp 3000 with 350000 of stack.
I open at 7500 (2.5x)
The player in small blind shove 15000
Big blind fold.
The initial limp shove 350000.
My question is must I pay? With a little over 40 blinds .....

I call he had 1010. I have bust

Thank you in advance
 
lsbenn

lsbenn

Rock Star
I hate AK. I would have limped with it.
I have lost more times with AK than with 22.
Just my thoughts.
 
P

popstani

Visionary
Situation from last night. I was playing tournament with about 2000 entrants, 50 left. I was at that moment fifth with 600 000 chips, and biggest stack on the table. Blinds are 4000-8000 and I’m on the button with As-Kh,everyone folds to me and I raise 10 000,SB fold,BB call. BB have 450 000 chips. Flop came K,3,6 . 3,6 was spades. I raised 60% of pot, and BB reraised me. Then I think for a little and decide to go all in. BB call and show K 10 of spades. Turn was 10 and I lost. So did I needed to jam? No!!! Even with K on the flop there are lots of hands to beat me, like sets or two pairs, even flush. I ended 27th because of that decision, and I could play final table if I folded on that spot. My point is, think twice before making decisions like this.
 
okeedokalee

okeedokalee

Glory To Ukraine
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Read this somewhere might have been advice from kidpoker.
" A-K is a hand to raise first in before the flop, but it doesn't play well post-flop if there is significant action, even when you flop TPTK.
A-Q is even more so, worse."

Over 40BB you still have significant play left. I would try very hard to find a fold in your situation.
 
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

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So untrue. The op can fold here and still find a much better spot to get it in. Furthermore, we are all here to learn and for you to call people nits is just not a proper way to respond to opinions that differ from your own.


What's wrong calling people nit? I don't think it is a disrespectful term. If someone plays only nuts, then he is nit with all due respect, I can't get why you are getting offended.
 
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

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This is not true. Players limp to re-shove. As I said in my original comment have they done this before. This answer if given would change the range and possibly make it a call. However from unknown you have to evaluate what there range is for a limp reshove, and it’s generally strong. If we had more details about villain we could give more detailed analysis but we don’t.

I hope you all make note of me being a nit.

Players limp to reshove only from EP, because limping to reshove makes sense only from EP. If you raise from you don't get a lot of action, that's why some weak players prefer to limp re-shove from EP. But even they understand that they get enough action when they open from late positions, so almost nobody limps to reshove from late positions. Also, people don't limp-re-shove TT, they do it usually with KK+, maybe QQ+, AK. In this particular hand, villain was just a loose passive fish, that decided to limp tens from CO, and facin action from hero and SB couldn't come up with anything better than pushing all in. He is not playing KK+ like these with so many blinds, in fact he won't even limp them from CO, because he knows he will get action from btn and blinds often enough. Villain's range here is something like KJ+, AJ+, mid pairs.

In fact we don't need to discuss range at all. You have 40bb, you have AK, you go broke preflop. It's that simple.
 
MemphisGrind

MemphisGrind

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Players limp to reshove only from EP, because limping to reshove makes sense only from EP. If you raise from you don't get a lot of action, that's why some weak players prefer to limp re-shove from EP. But even they understand that they get enough action when they open from late positions, so almost nobody limps to reshove from late positions. Also, people don't limp-re-shove TT, they do it usually with KK+, maybe QQ+, AK. In this particular hand, villain was just a loose passive fish, that decided to limp tens from CO, and facin action from hero and SB couldn't come up with anything better than pushing all in. He is not playing KK+ like these with so many blinds, in fact he won't even limp them from CO, because he knows he will get action from btn and blinds often enough. Villain's range here is something like KJ+, AJ+, mid pairs.

In fact we don't need to discuss range at all. You have 40bb, you have AK, you go broke preflop. It's that simple.


We will just agree to disagree
 
J

Jack Reacher

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Ok first of all nobody of you consider devisam psychological state of the game.It's late stage of the tournament you're tired and some asshole is trying to limp you just because he thinks that he can.From that perspective it was good decision,you have AK let's scorch this mother****er down.And if you lose like you obviously did you probably ended in the money so it's not so bad anyway.Now let's see the other side of the coin.You could choose to fold and to stay alive.Maybe that's the smarter thing to do as many here proposed.Ok i agree but to say that AK is not the strong hand?And that you will folded?I mean you have to been kidding me.It's obvious here that he is fishing the big bully and yes the fish was bigger that the net but this does not mean that AK is to blame.If he wanted just the blinds he could raise much more than he did and that will clearly be a signal to other guy that he will face the shark unless he is not have a peanut instead of brain.You decided to play like this it's not the wrong way i think just a little bit unfortunate.Don't let that discourage you in latter playing.Good luck!
 
R

RocwX

Rock Star
On one hand, I wouldn't say your call was wrong, because most times you're either dominating his hand or flipping with a lower pair and you had odds to do it. Of course, if he had AA or KK your chances would be absolutely low.

On the other hand, I don't like to risk all my stack preflop when I have 40 BBs. I'm confident enough that I can outplay other people post flop and can go deep if I fold in this spot.

What I'm trying to say is, statistically speaking you had the odds to call and could very well have won the hand. The problem is the variance. You end up with nothing or you end up with more than double you had before. I don't like to be put in that situation if I have a stack that is big enough to keep playing a solid game.
 
P

ph_il

...
FOLD.Too many big blinds up for stakes if it was 25 or less I'd insta shove. If he has a pair he has 57% equity against you. Your opponent at worst has 25% equity. THe hand is a gamble across 5 cards to come. YOU HAVE a very dominate ACE HIGH that is all.

Similar thing happend to me today I knew to fold AK ended in 3rd not bad.
You're only looking at equity for a specific hand, though. That's like saying it's a good call if villain had AQo because they have less equity. You need to look at ranges and not just a specific hand.
 
P

ph_il

...
I don't fold AK very often preflop in tourneys at under 50bb. I'm probably not folding here unless I have a really good read or strong stats to suggest someone is very nitty, or trappy. AK is a powerhouse and dominates a ton of stuff that shows up and blocks the really scary stuff. I would need a lot more information to find a fold here. I can make this fold vs the right players but as described I think I'm going with the hand. We need a lot of chips to make a run at the top 3 spots and winning flips is one of the main ways we do that in tourneys. what better hand to flip with than AK?

If you want to be a tourney player you need to get very, very comfortable with AK, be happy everytime you see it...and make sweet,sweet love to it.

obviously there are exceptions and there are deep stacked portions of tourneys....but mostly AK is just too good to fold pre in tourneys.
Pretty much what I would have said, just written much better.

It's amazing how much people under value/are afraid to play big, key pots with AK. Especially in the later stages of an MTT.
 
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