This is a discussion on STT math in ICMizer within the online poker forums, in the Tournament Poker section; Hi guys
I already beg apologies for the topic because I know it is something that has already been well discused but I still have questions
I already beg apologies for the topic because I know it is something that has already been well discused but I still have questions about this
So, I was watching a video from a professional Brazilian player (chiconogue), and during the game review (a 18man $7), he said that he used the ICM% EV only resting 5-6 players and all the rest of the game he studied by ChipEV
I do not know if I heard it right, but my doubt is arose that
Because I'm a STT player, which obviously has 9man, and I always studied my reviews by ICM% EV, all of the moves since 9 players remaining until the three handed
In my studies today, when I calculate in both modes (ICM Ev% and ChipEv) a call to shove situation and other push/fold moment when I was Btn, short stack and with 5 players remaing I realized that the icmizer gave me very different values...
Therefore, from what point should I use ICM% EV and ChipEv in a STT?
Hope you guys understand my bad english
Thanks, greetings from Brazil!
I'm just felling lost with this doubt, I already made a nice number of stt and still without a profit. This non profitable thing could be because this ICM mistake in my studies.
Sorry for flood my own thread, but it is really disappointing spent time studying a lot and still getting horrible results
i can't really read your photos properly, can you post the hand in question so i know stack sizes. The differance in Cev and $ev will be more when you get short handed or when the blinds are big.
You might have misunderstood where he used Cev, in the early game with say 9 players less the ICM tax is far less, and he may have used Cev there, i wouldnt reccomend it, but that would be the only type of situation it would make sense to use it as the values wouldnt differ as much. in the above situation, it's certainly $ev
The thing with ICMizer is that it can't think for itself, it's essentially a calculator. So it's really only as good as the person inputting the information.
what you would need to account for in the model is a negative edge due to the blinds about to hit us and the lack of future situations. You would also need to be able to put every player on a range here. I think there is an option in ICMizer to account for future hands so i would have that checked if you are not sure how much of a negative edge to take (highly advise that if you don't know what i'm talking about)
But thinking about this in just common sense terms.
1. you are very short equal stacks.
2. you need chips to be able to survive the next blind hit.
3. you are jamming into the BB who is roughly equal stacks to yours.
4. you will always have to shove through the big stack, meaning you should err on the side of being looser through a lack of good all in spots later.
5. you have a great hand that plays well in called pots, most players will call with broadway, pairs and Ax, so we don't get dominated as often when we jam middling connected cards like 98. it's also connected making it hit more flops in general giving you a % boost. So in these spots, it generally will play better than some of the high card hands just due to the fact it doesn't get dominated as often.
6. there is an ante in play we need to adjust for, so our 5ish bb stack is really more like a 2-3bb stack, making this a no brainer shove with a huge variety of hands, i'd say a range of arounf 70-80% would suffice here
7. we're still two away from the money, so the ICM tax is less severe here.
8. the BB should be calling us tighter in general as we can severly hurt his stack.
The only real downside of shoving this hand is that we have to shove through the huge stack at the table, but the one negative is outweighed by all the positives we gain by shoving here.