This is a discussion on Straight and Flush Draw Strategy within the online poker forums, in the Tournament Poker section; Hi,
I was in tournament with JQs and flop was Ace 10 and 3. Ace and K of same suit as I had. I was middle
First of all The Explanation of Hand need to be clear bud
What i understood from your question is this : -
You had JQs & flop was A 10 3 and other is unclear , i guess Turn was K
so u hit a made hand by turn and u had nut flush draw to improve your hand
So ur question whether this is a good move depends on villain & his stack size which u have not posted along with your question
u need to give following info for hand analysis : -
what is ur position ?
what were blinds & antes ?
what kind of type villain is " loose / tight " ?
what is your stack size & his stack size ?
how action went on flop ? etc
It seemed like a somewhat of a bad raise from the information I gathered. But we need more information to give better analysis.
We need to know the bet size, stack size, what kind of player is villain and the preflop action.
From what I gathered played from the cut off with QsJs your opponent was in the BB with AsKs. The flop was A(something) 10s 3s Your opponent and you then got into a betting war on the flop with there being at least four bets on the flop.
I would say you could have just called you opponents first bet on the flop and re evaluate turn.
from what i understand you had not hit anything yet you was hoping for a king or any of your suit, this means 12 outs, you only have a 48% chance of improving your hand,
the main questions you should ask is did you expect a fold?
the move in itself would require a few things, 1 for you to be the preflop agressor, and 2... for your opponent to have the ability to lay down his holding, purely by maths your bleeding chips which makes it a bad move
It really is a very good situation, but it seems to me to be a very relative action, as it will depend on many points such as:
- What were the blaides, how many chips did you have, what was the position, was already in itm?
I read your thread and the posts above .
Yeah , I have been on that position , how to extract max value when you have the nuts .
Slow play is not sth I like . Was he the big stack ? You were on the small blind I guess . You bet on the flop maybe and got called or you just checked each other ?
On the turn you bet , ok , he 3 bet ... of course there is the low risk of pairing on the river ... we don't know the stacks ,I guess 4 bet is the same as all in at this stage .
If the BB bet the flop he might have a set of 3 ,10 , TP Ax , on the turn two pair? ,set of K ? , A10+ . I think it's alright to shove his 3bet , we're never shoving I guess to the risk of FH , and he won't if he has sets, 2pair , TPTK ,TP with backdoor straight , plus a flush 3rd card on the river might scare him and make us lose some value . But if had the stacks and more info on the flop bets it would be better . IMO .
Like others pointed out it depends on what level of tournament. In the money I would shove but it is a shove with a drawing hand not matter what position since you haven't made the best hand. When one gets into these pots it really comes down to the math. I'm no way a big math guy but I know it might be worth to see to the river if there is a ton of chips in the middle. Also if one is short stack it may not be a bad spot to make a stand. You have 9 spades for a flush and four 10 to make a straight. Technically speaking your hand doesn't even rate and only your outs make it worth staying in. You got the nut flush draw and Broadway draw. Royal flush draw is nice but it doesn't add value to your hand anymore than the normal nut flush draw. It would only beat a full house but then you're drawing to a one-outer. Any ace, king or pocket pair has you beat. Shoving sounds worst the more you analyze this hand. You’re in a coin flip situation on the flop. I would want to see the next two cards, turn and river, as cheap as I could. I wouldn't fold and calling is the best option. You said he bet 3BB on the flop and you had the chips to call then I would. A small bet from the villain does suggest he got a small piece of it and is testing the water. Your shove is saying "hey I don't have much and I don't want you to call". It's a classic over bet situation on your part. If you have a hand then you know to bet it more evenly and slowly take his chips on the next betting rounds. He may also have a read on you.
Shoving is only for AA, KK, short stacked, the nuts and sometimes turbos. It’s your ultimate weapon but sometimes when used incorrectly, its useless. Slow down and think about your villain’s range and his position, level of the tournament, and chip stacks and who had control of the pot. You said you already but him on the A or K so you’re beat but you do have plenty of outs. Shoving? No. Check calling? Yes. Unless you have the ultimate read on your villain then don’t risk your tournament on a draw. I’ve had that heartbreak many times over.
Check call behind if it doesnt damage your stack too much. On the bubble I would fold (assuming I have a stack to support it)
If very short maybe a shove, since you could be worried about being pushed off the turn, but do it with the understanding your behind. Personally I do NOT like playing "catchup" post flop, unless I have no other option.
as everybody mentioned above alot of other factors matters , but anyway u have 15 outs , by applying the 2 and 4 rule that would be about 60 % equity so shoving is ok , especially if u hit nothing on the turn after u play passive by just calling , he can has an easy read on ur hand will charge u for the draw