Specific Spot with Pocket Kings

[theANMATOR]

Being new to the forum I don't know if there is a specific hand review section. I looked around and thought this was the most relevant thread to post in.

50gtd on ACR
Money bubble just popped.
Approximately 70 players remaining.
Average stack approx. 20k.
Blinds 1k/2k.

I'm in the CO with cowboys 22k chips.

EP short stack shoves for about 5k chips.

Folds around to me and I just call the shove.
BTTN has about 8k, SB has 3k and BB has me covered with about 29k.

I decided to just call the shove of the EP player, rather than re-shove. My thinking here was to possibly get the players left behind to come along, fully aware that BB has me covered.

BTTN folds SB folds and BB re-shoves.


I make the call, BTTN turns over , EP player turns over and the runout is clean. I scoop the pot.


The outcome of the hand was perfect, but I wondered later if anyone would play that spot differently. A lot of aggressive players there would probably just ship it without considering the situation, but I wanted to get max value from that hand and hope the elusive A/rag didn't suck out. By just calling the EP shove I think BB player thought he had the best hand pre with the pocket Tens.

I doubt BB would have folded the Tens if I would have shoved rather than calling the EP all-in,,,, but it's possible. Thoughts?

 

[vnnby]

You must play more agressive and on preflop raise him https://www.cardschat.com/pkimg/strat/poker-odds-chart.jpg. You must count your chances, because А10 is not bad hand and push him you increased his chances to win.

 

[Cesum Pec]

lots of people will immediately tell you to isolate. it is the safer thing to do. But it is not always the right choice.

You played it well. You got heads up in a big side pot where you were an 80/20 fave. even if the first all in had sucked out, you would have come away well to the good. You accepted a very small amount of additional risk compared to the potential huge pay off. excellent pot odds.

If you had seen that no one behind you had a significantly larger stack to make a good side pot, then I think isolate is the right thing to do. My rule of thumb is that the side pot has to be equal or better than the main, or I would isolate. I haven't figured out the math to know if that is the perfect choice, but it's working for me.

 

[axel142]

Well played, some additional risk, for a great potential to obtain extra value

 

[fundiver199]

I honestly dont think, it makes any difference, if you just call or rejam with these stack sizes. By calling you already put in more than 1/3 of your stack, which mean, you have clearly signaled to everyone behind, that you are never folding after the flop. So unless they are really bad, they will consider it an affective shove and play accordingly.

With stacks around 10BB, I dont think, anyone is ever folding TT after the bubble, so he would have come along either way. It was just a bit of a cooler for him. Honestly 10 BB poker is almost stupidly simple, so the biggest mistake is probably overthinking these situations

 

[theANMATOR]

Confusing reply

lots of people will immediately tell you to isolate. it is the safer thing to do. But it is not always the right choice.

You played it well. You got heads up in a big side pot where you were an 80/20 fave. even if the first all in had sucked out, you would have come away well to the good. You accepted a very small amount of additional risk compared to the potential huge pay off. excellent pot odds.

If you had seen that no one behind you had a significantly larger stack to make a good side pot, then I think isolate is the right thing to do. My rule of thumb is that the side pot has to be equal or better than the main, or I would isolate. I haven't figured out the math to know if that is the perfect choice, but it's working for me.

Thanks for the input Cesum Pec. You brought up a couple points I did not consider - with 20 seconds to act!! Dang! The things we have to think about in such a short amount of time. I will definitely review that hand again with your points in mind.

You must play more agressive and on preflop raise him https://www.cardschat.com/pkimg/strat/poker-odds-chart.jpg. You must count your chances, because А10 is not bad hand and push him you increased his chances to win.

Sorry to reply with a question and be results oriented - just wondering what would the outcome be playing more aggressive in this spot, other than isolating as mentioned above?

Playing more aggressive in this specific situation would do what exactly?

Are you saying preflop raise the remaining players left to act?

I don't think you understood the layout.
A/T was the initial EP all-in. I called EP shove, BB had pocket Ts and he shoved after I had called and then I shoved after BB with pocket Ts called. I INTENTIONALLY just called to get more action from the remaining players. Being more aggressive MIGHT have resulted in BB folding.

Rather than aggressive - I think I played this pretty passively well. LOL
Sometimes aggression is NOT the best strategy.

Thanks for the reply though.

 

[Cesum Pec]

I honestly dont think, it makes any difference, if you just call or rejam with these stack sizes. By calling you already put in more than 1/3 of your stack, which mean, you have clearly signaled to everyone behind, that you are never folding after the flop. So unless they are really bad, they will consider it an affective shove and play accordingly.

With stacks around 10BB, I dont think, anyone is ever folding TT after the bubble, so he would have come along either way. It was just a bit of a cooler for him. Honestly 10 BB poker is almost stupidly simple, so the biggest mistake is probably overthinking these situations

Disagree. Hero was putting in less than 25% of his stack. The BTN may or may not have a read on how Hero may act and chip leader, if he was a quality player, did not seriously think he wanted to go to the river with TT against 2 players where he is at best about 50% against the range of two players.

If Hero and EP both have over cards, like AJsu, and KQo, BTN is down to a little under 30% with his TT. No one in their right mind is risking 3/4 of his stack on that bet. I kept putting various combos into the odds machine, giving EP nothing but a big A and a random undercard, Hero 2 overcards, and BTN still can't get into the 40% fave range. The best combo that BTN could hope for is that TT is going against 2 under pairs, then he is 65%. That is a very unlikely situation.

So BTN obviously expected to have fold equity, thinking that Hero would not risk his tournament life. You might argue that BTN was a fool, but hey, part of our job is to offer foolish players the opportunities to make foolish mistakes and our Hero did just that.

 

[smallfrie]

With 11bb's and an open in front, I would just ship.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Flatting pre on slightly larger effective stack sizes might be an option (ie. 20-25bb's).. if we're doing this in hopes of trapping &/or inducing another player still to act to get it in (but definitely not to 'try to avoid losing to an A-rag hand').

 

[fundiver199]

Disagree. Hero was putting in less than 25% of his stack.

Sorry my bad. I thought, the first player had shoved for 5BB, but it was only 5k chips or 2,5BB. That makes Heros play a lot better. Flatting and jamming should be very close to the same EV with that open size, so both options are completely fine.

The guy with TT can certainly not fold TT, when he need to call 1,5BB to win a pot of 9BB. That would be absurdly nitty. Maybe you can argue for just calling and play out, but jamming is definitly +EV as well. And especially so after the bubble, where there is value in adoption a "go strong or go home" mentality to try and build a large stack, so you can put pressure on other players and reach the final table.

If I was the guy with TT, and its on the bubble, I probably just call to reduce my risk of not cashing, but after the bubble, yeah lets gamble it up. The final table is still far away, and payjumps usually dont start to really matter, until at least 75% of the remaining field is gone, so it does not matter, if I bust now or after half the remaining field is gone.

Your equity calculations are flawed, because there is a side pot between guy with TT and Hero. Even if the original jammer scoop the main pot, the guy with TT will still win a sizeable side pot against hero some percentage of the time.

Like shorty have KJ, Hero have AK, board run out is 5, 2, 2, 8, J. Shorty scoop the 9BB main pot, but guy with TT win a 17BB side pot. Guy with TT is only in bad shape, if he is against someone with JJ+, and that is simply not going to happen often enough to even consider folding in this spot.

 

[xy23]

Seems like standard play. If you wanna go in depth then simply calling would make any thinking players behind you assume that you had a monster so shoving over on top is the way to go.
But as mentioned before, I agree that with those stack sizes, it doesnt matter whether you call or rejam. You’ll get action if players behind you has a hand and not if they don’t.

 

[vnnby]

The outcome of the hand was perfect, but I wondered later if anyone would play that spot differently. A lot of aggressive players there would probably just ship it without considering the situation, but I wanted to get max value from that hand and hope the elusive A/rag didn't suck out. By just calling the EP shove I think BB player thought he had the best hand pre with the pocket Tens.

I doubt BB would have folded the Tens if I would have shoved rather than calling the EP all-in,,,, but it's possible. Thoughts?

Probably, I did't quite understand your question, but everything is good when it ends well. What would you do if 10 or A came? He who doesn't risk he has no benefit, but as for me I prefer to have less benefits than to give the opportunity to increase the number of outs and lose the bank with a strong hand. It's a poker if you won therefore you did everything right:captain:

 

[Cesum Pec]

Sorry my bad. I thought, the first player had shoved for 5BB, but it was only 5k chips or 2,5BB. That makes Heros play a lot better. Flatting and jamming should be very close to the same EV with that open size, so both options are completely fine.

The guy with TT can certainly not fold TT, when he need to call 1,5BB to win a pot of 9BB. That would be absurdly nitty. Maybe you can argue for just calling and play out, but jamming is definitly +EV as well. And especially so after the bubble, where there is value in adoption a "go strong or go home" mentality to try and build a large stack, so you can put pressure on other players and reach the final table.

If I was the guy with TT, and its on the bubble, I probably just call to reduce my risk of not cashing, but after the bubble, yeah lets gamble it up. The final table is still far away, and payjumps usually dont start to really matter, until at least 75% of the remaining field is gone, so it does not matter, if I bust now or after half the remaining field is gone.

Your equity calculations are flawed, because there is a side pot between guy with TT and Hero. Even if the original jammer scoop the main pot, the guy with TT will still win a sizeable side pot against hero some percentage of the time.

Like shorty have KJ, Hero have AK, board run out is 5, 2, 2, 8, J. Shorty scoop the 9BB main pot, but guy with TT win a 17BB side pot. Guy with TT is only in bad shape, if he is against someone with JJ+, and that is simply not going to happen often enough to even consider folding in this spot.

Please explain the flaw in my equity on the side pot. I'm not saying you're wrong, I want to see if I'm missing something.

And I'm not saying the TT made a huge mistake given the info he had when he shoved. We cant know what his reads on the hero were. Sometimes you go with your best read, and this time the TT was wrong.

 

[BillyBaker23]

Go All in

 

[theANMATOR]

Sorry my bad. I thought, the first player had shoved for 5BB, but it was only 5k chips or 2,5BB. That makes Heros play a lot better.

Please explain the flaw in my equity on the side pot. I'm not saying you're wrong, I want to see if I'm missing something.

And I'm not saying the TT made a huge mistake given the info he had when he shoved. We cant know what his reads on the hero were. Sometimes you go with your best read, and this time the TT was wrong.

Glad I was able to spark a nice discussion. You guys make the hand out to be even more interesting than I originally thought it was.

Thanks for all the interesting opinions. To be quite frank - I really don't consider the math in these situations. Maybe that's a problem, but I seem to do better looking for exploits, and taking advantage when available.
I initially thought BB would be shoving with a pair, but didn't think they were Ts. A/T was so short I can't fault him for shoving, though he still had roughly 2.5 left behind, might have picked a better spot through another orbit. With 9 or 8 left to act after his shove, it's probable someone is going to have something to call with - especially since it's only 2.5 to call.

An interesting thought experiment would be with the exact situation but with blinds at 250/500 or 125/250. I'd probably make the same move though as long as we were in the money. If that was the situation I believe BB might have just made the call rather than shoving, but who knows. I didn't play with him long enough to get any sense of a read.

Regarding any read BB might have had on me, the only thing I can mention is he may have thought I was tight, because I'd played only 2 hands to the river with him on the table and every time I had the best hand. I also raised with pocket Qs from SB pre and got MP and BB preflop fold about 5-8 hands prior and I decided to show them because it's always nice to show off the ladies!!