Sick ICM spot from a while ago, I need a refresher

JJP

JJP

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 26, 2018
Total posts
759
Awards
4
Chips
3
Ok FT of a large field $5.50 R, down to 8 players.

Payouts are ;
1st - $7,997.41
2nd - $5,627.81
3rd - $3,850.61
4th - $3,050.87
5th - $2,428.85
6th - $1,836.45
7th - $1,244.05
8th - $770.13

pokerstars, $5 + $0.50 - Hold'em No Limit - 40,000/80,000 (10,000 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

UTG (Hero): 1,840,920 (23 bb)
UTG+1: 2,807,021 (35 bb)
MP: 904,466 (11 bb)
MP+1: 4,007,469 (50 bb)
LP: 819,818 (10 bb)
CO: 1,217,642 (15 bb)
BU: 4,381,504 (55 bb)
SB: 1,022,764 (13 bb)
BB: 2,972,396 (37 bb)

Pre-Flop: (210,000) Hero is UTG with K A
Hero raises to 186,665, 1 fold, MP 3-bets to 894,466 (all-in), MP+1 calls 894,466, 5 players fold, Hero ?
 
SirYivx

SirYivx

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 1, 2018
Total posts
305
Chips
0
With 3 other short stacks, and a cold call from MP+1, I am folding here. I think QQ+ I will come over the top but I am folding everything else. We simply do not have the stack to just flat call here, and it doesn't really make sense to risk our tournament life with this hand while there are so many short stacks behind.
 
A

AJantwan

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 13, 2019
Total posts
116
Chips
0
Agree with SirYivx.

1) There are three short stacks. Why not just wait for them to bust? I'm not one to always argue for being a nit near the bubble, but in this case, yes. 1 away from the money and 3 short stacks, I'm definitely going to be conservative.

2) Even with QQ or KK, you're not much better than a coinflip in a three-way pot.

Definitely a fold for me.

(Out of curiosity, did you plug this into an ICM calculator? Not that it would change my decision, but I'd be curious.)
 
smknginmaine

smknginmaine

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 18, 2018
Total posts
968
Awards
2
Chips
0
Jam. Not really a tough decision. I get the reservation. The but but but..... But jam is the correct play. Fold is- blah. But even folding is better than flatting- worst of the 3.


ICM=
Implied Chip Model- for those who throw it around, having no idea what it actually means ( no one on here obviously ;) )

1st jam (do it)
2nd fold
3rd Flat (do not!)

.......... arguments with validity can be made for other options. But the reasons for those are not ICM related.
Example- bigger tourney than usually play and good chance never/rarely in this spot again- etc... Still jam- but I see why some won't.
This question was asked relating to ICM rather than opinion and other factors.
You'll get many many different answers regarding opinion on here.
But ICM wise- Jam City :)
 
Last edited:
JJP

JJP

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 26, 2018
Total posts
759
Awards
4
Chips
3
Agree with SirYivx.

1) There are three short stacks. Why not just wait for them to bust? I'm not one to always argue for being a nit near the bubble, but in this case, yes. 1 away from the money and 3 short stacks, I'm definitely going to be conservative.

2) Even with QQ or KK, you're not much better than a coinflip in a three-way pot.

Definitely a fold for me.

(Out of curiosity, did you plug this into an ICM calculator? Not that it would change my decision, but I'd be curious.)

I have not rany any ICM calcs on this hand. I just wanted a community opinion. I find it to be an interesting spot and see the arguments for both sides.
 
JJP

JJP

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 26, 2018
Total posts
759
Awards
4
Chips
3
I guess I should also say 9th gets paid $533.17, we are well within the money in a very large field (idk why I left the 9th part out in my original post, sorry it's been a while for me)
 
Last edited:
P

popstani

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Total posts
635
Awards
1
Chips
1
Well, I don’t know what kind of player is mp, but I would suspect that he bullies here with his stack ( I would do), nobody will call him in this situation, but still you are in flip coin situation, so fold here by my opinion is the best play
 
P

popstani

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Total posts
635
Awards
1
Chips
1
Well, I don’t know what kind of player is mp, but I would suspect that he bullies here with his stack ( I would do), nobody will call him in this situation, but still you are in flip coin situation, so fold here by my opinion is the best play
 
fishfood80

fishfood80

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 17, 2015
Total posts
357
Chips
0
Ok FT of a large field $5.50 R, down to 8 players.

Payouts are ;
1st - $7,997.41
2nd - $5,627.81
3rd - $3,850.61
4th - $3,050.87
5th - $2,428.85
6th - $1,836.45
7th - $1,244.05
8th - $770.13

PokerStars, $5 + $0.50 - Hold'em No Limit - 40,000/80,000 (10,000 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

UTG (Hero): 1,840,920 (23 bb)
UTG+1: 2,807,021 (35 bb)
MP: 904,466 (11 bb)
MP+1: 4,007,469 (50 bb)
LP: 819,818 (10 bb)
CO: 1,217,642 (15 bb)
BU: 4,381,504 (55 bb)
SB: 1,022,764 (13 bb)
BB: 2,972,396 (37 bb)

Pre-Flop: (210,000) Hero is UTG with K A
Hero raises to 186,665, 1 fold, MP 3-bets to 894,466 (all-in), MP+1 calls 894,466, 5 players fold, Hero ?

I'd say it's either jam or fold flat calling would be very bad imo. I don't know if MP+1 is flatting that wide of a range seeing how he's 2nd in chips with a raise and a 3 bet jam before him. His line looks pretty strong to me maybe looking to induce the rejam. After thinking about it I guess I'd probably just ship it seeing how your blocking AA and KK. I mean sometimes its your time to die in a tourney and even if MP scoops you aren't done and if MP+1 scoops you laddered up. So it comes to what your trying to accomplish if you want to ladder up fold and if your trying to win the thing jam.
 
kowrip

kowrip

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 8, 2018
Total posts
368
Chips
0
Definitely a tricky spot. The call by MP+1 doesn't give you a whole lot of information since MP is pushing really wide with an 11BB stack. With 4 shorter stacks, I'd lean towards a fold. However, a shove is a decent alternative since even if MP+1 calls you, there is a strong chance you could be dominating his/her range. So, let's say MP has a pair and MP+1 has something like AQ/KQ/AJ. Even if you lose to the pair, you'll still win the side pot from MP+1. What tips me towards the fold is that MP+1 has you covered and also there is a good chance that MP will bust on this hand and you'll automatically jump up by $450.
 
S

skeptix

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 21, 2018
Total posts
140
Chips
0
Very interesting spot. I definitely have trouble folding this hand but maybe you're supposed to. ICM has never been my strong suit, I always wanna go for the win.
 
A

AJantwan

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 13, 2019
Total posts
116
Chips
0
Agree with SirYivx.

1) There are three short stacks. Why not just wait for them to bust? I'm not one to always argue for being a nit near the bubble, but in this case, yes. 1 away from the money and 3 short stacks, I'm definitely going to be conservative.

2) Even with QQ or KK, you're not much better than a coinflip in a three-way pot.

Definitely a fold for me.

(Out of curiosity, did you plug this into an ICM calculator? Not that it would change my decision, but I'd be curious.)

Wait a second...I misread the initial post. For one, you're already in the money. So...hmmm. I would still lean towards folding and the reason is because you need a better hand to call than to shove. That's standard tournament philosophy. Of course, AKo is a pretty good hand. If it were just one person in the pot, I'd call. But the the fact that someone else called before you, they probably have a pretty top notch hand as well. Heck, even if one of them has a low pair, your odds are nothing special.

I don't think calling is awful, but I don't think it's the best play. I like to be in the driver's seat and not reacting, especially if out of position. What happens when you miss the flop, and the MP+1 c-bets?

I'd still fold.
 
Top