QUICK add-on question

[nateofdeath]

Well, the only rebuy tournies I ever play are the $3+R tournies on pokerstars. The first hour tends to be a lottey, with 2 to 3 times as many rebuys as entries, and people calling with litterally anything if the pot is big enough. I like to play this event with the goal in mind not to rebuy or add on much at all, as just finishing in the money will usually grant you a profit of 7 times your buy in. If I go out, i go out, and just count it as a loss. Because as wild as the action is, one can end up rebuying so many times that you have to finish well into the money to make a profit, and i just can't see the logic in that. In your opinion is that the wrong way to play? I'm asking honestly. It just seems to me the more you rebuy, the less value you are getting on your money. Unless you make a lot of final tables, then the number of rebuys are meaningless, but personally i find (and i don't know about anybody else) I finish in the money a heck of a lot more often then I make final tables. sorry if i'm taking this off topic

-n

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

You comment about not making many final tables and just sneaking into the money a lot, but by being so timid during the rebuy period that's exactly what's going to happen.

The first hour (or w/e the rebuy period is) in a rebuy is all about accumulating chips. If your table is loose you can sit back a little and push stronger hands, but if your table is tight you need to loosen up and stimulate action so that chips are being thrown around your table.

You play overly tightly and not intend on rebuying, you will more often than not come out of the rebuy period with a small stack and no room for maneuver. You push all slight edges, and even 40/60s, and chances are you will have a run of luck somewhere along the line which will accumulate a nice stack for yourself. A bigger stack coming out of the rebuy period means more room for maneuver, more stealing opportunities, and more chance of going very deep in the tourney.

Looking at the payout structure for one of the $3 rebuys on Stars, first paid 190ish times more than the lowest money tier. Even FTing guarantees 15 times the lowest tier money, and this is with Stars' crappy 20% payout. You should be aiming to FT, and to do this you need chips. If you have to rebuy a few times to get them, so be it. By not rebuying and quitting when bust you are giving up such a huge edge to the players who are rebuying that it's hardly worth your time bothering playing at all, play a freezeout instead.

 

[nateofdeath]

i wasn't complaining, I was just asking your opinion. You're so keen on the math and 'EV', I was hoping for a responce which included these facts, no just unwarented ciritism. I mean, how often do you make final tables? besides I wasn't even disagreeing with you. As i've said in pervious 'discussions' with you Dorkus, you and I just speak a different language, and so I won't bother replying to posts that you have already entered into anymore. You are always right.

-n

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Why so defensive?

I edited 'complain', as maybe it was a little strong.

I don't see how you can't link your lack of FTing with the fact you're not willing to rebuy, though.

I'll post some fun maths tomorrow when it's not 2am. :/

 

[nateofdeath]

Why so defensive?

I edited 'complain', as maybe it was a little strong.

I don't see how you can't link your lack of FTing with the fact you're not willing to rebuy, though.

I'll post some fun maths tomorrow when it's not 2am. :/

again, i ask, how many "FT's" do you make per tournaments played? I'm sorry if I appeared defensive. I honestly agreed with you from the beginning on this subject. I would love to read the 'fun maths' which you meantioned, but I won't post on this discussion any further. For whatever reason, this is just the way it always works out when I enter into your posts. I appoligize. there is no need to continue this any further, at least for me, though I will read on

-n

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

("How many FTs do you make per tournament played?" isn't really an important statistic. If I made the FT 5% of the time in 1000 player tourneys, it would be good. If I made the same % of FTs in 100 person tourneys, it would be bad)

Okay, here's the maths, as promised.

I'm assuming you're a winning player. Let's look at instant rebuying at the start of a tourney.

Say you start with 1500 chips, and the instant rebuy, if taken, will give you 1500 extra chips. The buyin is $10 and rebuys are $10 (I'm even ignoring the fact that there's no vig on rebuys which makes them even more appealing)

Assume also that you maintain your starting stack (be it 1500 or 3000) for a while.

Now assume that, as a winning player, you can get all your chips in with, let's say on average a 60/40 edge on your opponents. Assume that said opponent has you covered.

If you instantly rebought, you have 3000 chips for $20. You have a 60% chance of doubling up to T6000, and a 40% chance of going broke and having to rebuy. Your EV is ((6000*0.6)+(0*0.4)) = 3600 total chips for an expected total buyin of $24 ($20+($10*0.4)), assuming you rebuy if bust. That's 150 chips per $ invested.

If you did not instantly rebuy, you have 1500 chips for $10. The percentage chances stay the same, but you have a 60% chance of doubling up to only T3000. Your EV is now ((3000*0.6)+(0*0.4)) = 1800 total chips for an expected total buyin of $14 ($10+($10*0.4)). That's now 128.5 chips per $ invested.

Yeah, the above only covers one specific situation, but works in much the same way from a broader perspective, without even touching on the other benefits of having a bigger stack (having more opportunities to steal, and so on).

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Regarding rebuying in general, there’s no deep maths involved.

Assume again that you are a winning player, and have an ROI of 50%.

Assume that you bust. Rebuys are $10 for 1500 chips, as above.

If you do not rebuy, you pay $0 extra, obviously. You gain $0 in value.

Double rebuying is addressed in my last post, so for the purposes of this I’ll assume that you single rebuy.

If you do rebuy, you pay $10 extra. As you have an ROI of 50%, you can expect, in the long run, that this further investment of $10 will actually be worth $15 ($10+($10*0.5)). In actuality, it may be worth a little less than this due to you having a short stack, but you can still expect a positive return as long as you have a reasonable ROI. Thus whenever you elect not to rebuy, you are losing $5 in value. You have to remember that your initial buyin of $10 is gone whether you rebuy or not. Therefore you are not paying $20 for $15 in value, you are paying $10 for it.

There are two situations in which I could advocate not rebuying, one of which is purely theoretical and is unlikely to occur, the other is much more relevant

a)If the blinds are very large, then you lose your skill edge, and there comes a point where rebuying is not feasible (I really don’t know exactly where but I’d estimate it’s around about the point where you’d be rebuying for less than 10-15BBs, which you will never be doing assuming a normal tournament structure and that you always double rebuy).

b) If you’re tilting. When on tilt, you lose your skill edge, and your investment of $10 may well be worth less than $10 in value.

 

[nateofdeath]

I know i said i wouldn't post on this again, but i just wanted to thank you for your advice. i've been doing a lot better at rebuys lately playing this way (though i suppose i always did when i can afford it). anyway, thanks.

-n

 

[Bombjack]

If you do rebuy, you pay $10 extra. As you have an ROI of 50%, you can expect, in the long run, that this further investment of $10 will actually be worth $15 ($10+($10*0.5)). In actuality, it may be worth a little less than this due to you having a short stack, but you can still expect a positive return as long as you have a reasonable ROI. Thus whenever you elect not to rebuy, you are losing $5 in value.

There's a flaw in the first part of this argument as you half point out. You assume the ROI on a rebuy to give you half the stack of everyone else is the same as your normal tournament ROI, whereas I'm pretty sure it would be a lot lower.

I can see the arguments for doing an "instant" rebuy to double your chips at the beginning, because you're at a disadvantage if you don't.

But I don't agree that you should ever rebuy after being busted out in an online tournament. Simply because, as you say, your ROI on this rebuy will be less because you're now the short stack, and you're re-starting at a disadvantage to everyone else. You can get a better return on this money by simply going and entering another tournament where you're on a level playing field again.

Not trying to be argumentative, but is there any flaw in this logic? Can anyone claim that the ROI on a rebuy for a small stack in the middle of a tourney is higher than your normal tournament ROI? If not, there's no reason to rebuy.

The only reasons I can think of that would rebuy are
a) You're enjoying the company and it's a fun table
b) It's a live tournament and you've spent a whole lot of time and effort travelling to the venue, and there isn't another tournament you can enter

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

I really don't understand your point.

In rebuys, other people are rebuying when they bust. If, once you bust, you do not rebuy, you are essentially giving up an infinite edge to players who do rebuy. Giving up infinite edges isn't good.

You talk about ROI on rebuys being lower, but if I do not rebuy, yet I have a positive expectancy on any investments in rebuys, my ROI as a whole is going to suffer to an even greater extent because of the edge I am giving up by not rebuying. Say I bust and don't rebuy, my ROI for that tourney is -100%. If I bust and rebuy once even with an expected ROI of 0% on my extra $10, my ROI is ultimately -50% - quite a difference.

Yes, I can go and enter another tournament when I bust, but if I was planning on not rebuying, the obvious course of action would be to play a 'freezeout' instead, where I am not giving up any infinite edges.

 

[Egon Towst]

the obvious course of action would be to play a 'freezeout' instead

That sounds to me like the best advice in this whole thread.

Personally, I hate rebuys. What could be worse than having to get rid of the same donk three or four times ?

 

[Bombjack]

Trouble is, you may have an "infinite edge" over someone who's busted out and doesn't rebuy, but you don't have an edge over everyone else in the tournament. In fact you're automatically near the bottom of the pile, at a big disadvantage to people with larger stacks.

I'm not convinced that you do actually do always have a positive expectation for return on rebuys, but I think we agree it's going to be less than your normal expected return. Even if it is positive, if it's less than your normal return, your overall ROI will decrease on average because this lower expected return brings your average down.

Having thought about it for a while, I think (and this is just my theory btw) that the best strategy is to enter rebuys because you will get a higher overall ROI on average (due to the expanding prize pool from rebuys) but don't rebuy yourself because each rebuy gives lower than average expected return. Instead use the money to enter another tourney.

I can't claim to be any sort of expert on rebuy tournaments, but I'm just trying to think of it from a theoretical point of view based solely on ROI. There are other factors that should be taken into account, e.g. rebuying is fun, and more importantly your rate of return per hour played, consideration of which may give a different verdict.

Add-ons = a whole different matter.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

You've made me think here, which I appreciate.

I still think your logic is flawed though.

You are, I think, making too much of the 'disadvantage' with regard to chipstacks that you're at when you rebuy. Taking Stars rebuys as an example, blinds at the end of the first hour are 50/100. You can double rebuy, as you can in most. That's 3000 chips. The addon is a further 2000 chips. That's 5k chips at 50/100 blinds if you rebuy towards the end of the rebuy period. 50BBs is plenty of chips to enforce a skill edge with.

Also, and this I feel is crucial, if you play rebuys as you suggest, the vast majority of the time you are going to end up with a short stack at the end of the rebuy period anyway. Coupled with the edge you're giving away by not rebuying if you bust, this is huge. You say you are at a disadvantage if you rebuy because of the stack you will have, are you not also at a disadvantage because you are playing very tightly so as to conserve your only buyin you're prepared to invest, and thus often having a short stack as a consequence?

 

[Bombjack]

I don't think you're likely to end up with a short stack at the end of the rebuy period if you don't rebuy. This would only be the case if people who rebought are likely to have bigger stacks than those who haven't - I think the opposite is true, because the big stacks don't need to rebuy, and people who have rebought will have had less time to build them back up.

There may be some effect as you point out if you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing too conservatively, and it may be the case that the big stacks are those who played aggressively and got lucky. But you can still play aggressively, and if you bust out, start another tournament where you'll be getting better value for your buy-in.

You may get enough chips to enforce your skill edge with from a rebuy, but you've got to admit that if you do rebuy, you are at some disadvantage to those with bigger stacks?

 

[Kenzie 96]

When I play a rebuy it is with the intention of rebuying at the break. Have busted & left the game without rebuying if I felt that I was playing poorly, but every time I have reached the rebuy break I have rebought regardless of stack size. I think of it basically as shit happens insurance.

 

[Bombjack]

On further reflection (and sorry to keep dragging this thread back from the dead), it may not be a positively BAD move, although not optimal, to rebuy in the early stages. The ROI on a rebuy may still be higher than your freezeout ROI.

Given that the ROI on late rebuys, when other stacks are much larger, are a losing proposition (low or negative), the initial buy-in for a good player must have a higher than normal ROI.

In the situation where you bust out on your first hand, the ROI you get from a rebuy will be almost identical to that of your buy-in. As play continues, and your odds of getting into the money with only the minimum "rebuy stack" decline, rebuys become progressively less attractive. There must be a cross-over stage where you start getting a lower than normal ROI.

However, it would still be the case that you'd be better off from an ROI perspective not rebuying, and entering a new rebuy tournament if you bust out, because this will always give you the highest ROI.

Again would stress this is just from a simplistic ROI perspective - time or practical considerations, or even capital gained through reads on your opponents, may also increase the attractiveness of a rebuy.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

this thread was goot, archiving~