"Playing To Win" vs "Getting in the money"

[tzuriel]

Does this apply in SnGs as well? If there are 4 players left (3 get paid) and one is a real short stack (under 4 BB) should we be folding even when we know we are ahead pre flop to avoid the variance?

This happened to me recently where a 35 13 chip leader (who had played okay throughout but pretty loose) limped the small blind and I checked ATs. Flop comes AQ7 rainbow and I know I am ahead of his range here. He leads and I shove. He flips over A7o and I bubble while the shorty gets ITM. I thought alot about this and I still can't decide 100% if it was the right play Yeah I lost but that doesn't mean I was wrong. Folding here would have left me with 11BB and 2nd place had 29BB. But maybe I should be waiting for a better spot after the bubble bursts?

 

[P86]

I don't think it's a bad play but in these spots I tend to shove with A10 try be more aggressive and since your opponent is opening a wide range you will get the fold most of the times but even if u shove A10 and he calls A7 pre he made a bad call...

 

[KRANKES]

If there's a short stack, always put pressure on the other two. All-in makes him think twice. Besides, from the last 5 players it is only worth to play for the win, as a third place gives you your money back, 2nd place maybe 1.5 buy-ins...

 

[whiskers77]

I also would have shoved this hand preflop definitely by the same reasons, that P86 mentioned.
Furthermore, if you ask this question in generall, I think it is also depending on your bankroll. If you are still in strong need to build up a tiny bankroll, then I would play more nitty, I guss. But if not, I would always go for the win.

 

[terryk]

I always go 4 the win,,,,second sux! :star:

 

[fundiver199]

In 9-man SnGs we are certainly not only "playing for the win", since min-cashes make up a big part of our long term winrate. As for how to play AT, it depends on the effective stack, which you did not mention. But as a general comment either you were shallow enough to move in preflop, or you were deep enough to just call on the flop and then make some decisions later. Overbet jamming AT on AQ7 rainbow is a bit of an overplay and force him to often have a better hand, when he call you down.

 

[tzuriel]

In 9-man SnGs we are certainly not only "playing for the win", since min-cashes make up a big part of our long term winrate. As for how to play AT, it depends on the effective stack, which you did not mention. But as a general comment either you were shallow enough to move in preflop, or you were deep enough to just call on the flop and then make some decisions later. Overbet jamming AT on AQ7 rainbow is a bit of an overplay and force him to often have a better hand, when he call you down.

I started the hand with 12BB. So better to shove preflop I think, huh?

 

[rabman50]

Fundiver made a good point. In SnG's you need to consider your overall winrate. In your exact situation I may just lay low and let the shortie bust. Once we have secured a spot in the money we can play for first.

 

[Medina]

That saying is more valid for Tournaments.
It was a good decision to try in my opinion. Against a loose opponent after a good flop, it would have been a mistake not to go all-in.
If this hand is on Tournament, I'll definitely fold, bubble si & go is a different situation.

 

[Roller]

ICM often dictates the proper play at specific spots at the tables or you can simply old school it and go for the win. Some of it is also determined by how much the win means to you and if it's the proper move for you.

 

[fundiver199]

I started the hand with 12BB. So better to shove preflop I think, huh?

Yeah with that stack size I prefer to move in preflop. As played you cant get away postflop.

 

[caracaski220]

caracaski220

some ICM considerations are well and fine in a tournament, however I paly to win , not to cash. the bubble is a specially good spot to chip up against those players that are just trying to make the money and will fold AQ, JJ, or even better, because they are scared of not cashing.

 

[dsmilez]

I'm definitely shoving in this spot. If he calls, that's indeed an awful call. As far as the flop, it really wasn't a terrible play since you were playing for the win. Being the bubble boy happens more often when we play to win. We also get higher placements when we play this way as well.

 

[tzuriel]

Thanks for all the responses folks!

 

[fundiver199]

Seem like all the stack sizes were actually given by Hero, and if I understand it correctly, they were:

SB: 35BB
BB (Hero): 11BB
CO and BTN: 4BB and 28 BB respectively

We can plug this into ICMizer, and actually I was wrong. We are under so much ICM-pressure here in a 9-man, that ICMizer only wants us to jam AQ+ and TT+. If the chip leader had moved in against us, only 88+ would be a call. ICMizer cant analyse postflop, but I would also a really difficult time folding, when I flopped top pair decent kicker, and SB can likely have any two cards. So just a bit unlucky to run into this cooler at a really bad time.

 

[Pawlowski]

I believe that is the best option if in aa tournament but not in a SnG.

 

[fundiver199]

Should add though, that while taking the free flop was correct, and while postflop was a big cooler for us, I still dont like jamming the flop. AQ7 rainbow is a very dry texture, so if he is not ahead already, there are few ways for him to draw out on us. Pot preflop was around 2,4BB with the ante, and if he bet half pot on the flop, it would then be 4,8BB, if we just call, and we would still have 10BB left.

So we were likely overbet jamming for around 2X the pot, and this almost force him to play well. Sure we probably get called by some hands, we beat, like A2-A6 and A8-A9. But if he has anything else, he is just going to fold, and we dont give him a chance to bluff us on the turn and river. So while jamming is probably +EV, I think, calling is significantly better, and then I would basically just call him down. Or maybe if the turn card puts out a lot of draws, and he bet again, thats the time, I get it in.

 

[black and]

I always set myself the goal of "Getting in the money". This is my top priority. And in general, as a result of this year, my bankroll only grew.

 

[nuttea]

Does this apply in SnGs as well? If there are 4 players left (3 get paid) and one is a real short stack (under 4 BB) should we be folding even when we know we are ahead pre flop to avoid the variance?

This happened to me recently where a 35 13 chip leader (who had played okay throughout but pretty loose) limped the small blind and I checked ATs. Flop comes AQ7 rainbow and I know I am ahead of his range here. He leads and I shove. He flips over A7o and I bubble while the shorty gets ITM. I thought alot about this and I still can't decide 100% if it was the right play Yeah I lost but that doesn't mean I was wrong. Folding here would have left me with 11BB and 2nd place had 29BB. But maybe I should be waiting for a better spot after the bubble bursts?

Each party to this dispute can provide valid and substantive arguments and logical facts. "Only a tight game of poker - only hardcore!" - those in favor of this position argue that you cannot win by constantly acting on the brink of risk. Loose-aggressive players say that you can't play profitably if you always get only the minimum payout for a poker tournament, you need to break into the later stages by all means, by hook or by crook.The problem is that most players who make these claims (from both sides) cannot adapt to a different style of poker. They either endlessly show aggression or play tight until they have no choice but to push all-in to survive the next round of blinds. I am of the opinion that many of the new school players have gone too far with the idea of ​​playing to win, as have those who are too eager to get into the money.

 

[manIk5]

Honestly , I dont think you've done anything wrong in that spot , it was just a cooler .

Maybe you should push preflop , but that play is questionable since you're 1 away from $$$ . Maybe you should just fold post flop , wait for better spot (2 pairs+) or wait for 4th player to bust or double-up , and start playing (all-in/fold). It would be safer , but that play is also questionable since you're around 10bb and you dont have much of a choice or time to make it count .
But still you flop top pair in limped pot , and if you though you were ahead of your opponent range , i would encourage you to go for it , like u did . Sometimes they'll have better hand or outdrawn you , sometimes you'll double up . Basicly it all comes down to your bankroll and how well you read your opponents ! If your bankroll is large enough for game you're playing , then I'd say go for it .

Just my humble opinion , hope it helped :icon_sant

 

[Zapahlohotrona]

You cannot refuse profitable decisions, if a profitable decision must be made and that is all. I doubt that it is possible to play profitably by refusing such decisions. Sometimes it is really beneficial to "sit out", but this is rare.

 

[Luvepoker]

Playing for the win is normally the right way to play. SNG on the bubble with a 4BB stack left is where this starts it become a bit different to me. With a guy this short we need to make sure we are ahead if putting the money in. While your correct your ahead of his range, he limped here. With his stack he can limp sick wide and have anything so you can't be sure. I cant blame you for going broke here but with the other player so short we need to be carfull.

 

[Lucky_Shark]

I don 't see the point in checking with a hand ATs. You had to push the preflop to avoid getting into such post-flop situations. But if we have already checked and we got into the top pair on the flop, then we are exposed.

 

[TeUnit]

I think this depends on the steepness of the payout curve, for example a double or nothing sng is much different than a winner take all sng.

 

[fundiver199]

Playing for the win is normally the right way to play. SNG on the bubble with a 4BB stack left is where this starts it become a bit different to me.

Actually there are many situations, where ICM is the overriding concern and absolutely can not be ignored, both at MTT final tables and when we are playing 3-handed in both SnGs and MTTs. If we take the classic 9-man with a 50/30/20 payout and a situation, where someone has 70% of the chips, we have 20% and the last player has 10%, then we need 67% equity to call a jam from the chip leader, because dubbling our stack through him will only increase the ICM value of our chips half as much, as we lose by busting in third.