C
CTLAW
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
They could be making mistakes, like Fundiver says. But if you have a 10bb stack, you don't always need a strong hand to shove. For example, assuming there's an ante and everyone folds to you in the small blind with a 10bb stack, you should definitely go all-in with a hand like T5o and it would be fine to shove all hands.
On the other side, if a tight opponent shoves 10bb from under-the-gun, calling with a hand like ATo could be too wide. Good players will usually use ICM software like ICMizer or Holdem Resources to learn these ranges.
On the other side, if a tight opponent shoves 10bb from under-the-gun, calling with a hand like ATo could be too wide. Good players will usually use ICM software like ICMizer or Holdem Resources to learn these ranges.
NWPatriot
Rock Star
Silver Level
In my opinion, we are in a bit of a "random tips" period, in the evolution of Holdem. You can ask the same question verbatum, and get multiple conflicting responses to the same question. It is very difficult to discern what is good advice and what is bad advice these days. All of the providers of their advice, deliver it with confidence and authority, including insulting those that play contrary to them.
As for this question, just yesterday I was working through a question in the "Poker Tournament Workbook" (Sweeney) which specifically asked this question about whether to shove/fold an opened pot with 9BB left from the big blind. It was enlightening to dig into this problem.
HoldemResources calculations provides a range of 20% shove/ 80% fold if shove/fold are our only possible answers. If we run the same analysis but have HoldemResources calculate between call/shove/fold then the range is now 86%call, 6%shove and 8%fold.
These answers are much, much narrower than many shove/fold charts you will find on the internet. Even those created by some very popular coaches and players. Since the HoldemResources answer is based on ICM at a final table scenario, it is a calculated answer that provides which hands will have +EV and which will not. It knows nothing about an opposing players tendency to fold or even their current range (unless we force this into the calculation), it merely calculates the optimum range to increase your EV and calculates the optimum calling range for the original raiser.
Good luck finding the real answer, but I personally believe that many of the shove/fold charts are way to wide. What point is there in shoving with T5o when we are certain to have a better hand than this, sometime in the next few hands? When we are allin, of course we hope that our stack is big enough to warrant a fold, but we MUST be able to win if a caller gets us to showdown. There is no single shove/fold % - it is truly dependant on 3 primary conditions: is the pot already open or not, the players left to act (position) and the stack sizes of all players still active in the hand.
As for this question, just yesterday I was working through a question in the "Poker Tournament Workbook" (Sweeney) which specifically asked this question about whether to shove/fold an opened pot with 9BB left from the big blind. It was enlightening to dig into this problem.
HoldemResources calculations provides a range of 20% shove/ 80% fold if shove/fold are our only possible answers. If we run the same analysis but have HoldemResources calculate between call/shove/fold then the range is now 86%call, 6%shove and 8%fold.
These answers are much, much narrower than many shove/fold charts you will find on the internet. Even those created by some very popular coaches and players. Since the HoldemResources answer is based on ICM at a final table scenario, it is a calculated answer that provides which hands will have +EV and which will not. It knows nothing about an opposing players tendency to fold or even their current range (unless we force this into the calculation), it merely calculates the optimum range to increase your EV and calculates the optimum calling range for the original raiser.
Good luck finding the real answer, but I personally believe that many of the shove/fold charts are way to wide. What point is there in shoving with T5o when we are certain to have a better hand than this, sometime in the next few hands? When we are allin, of course we hope that our stack is big enough to warrant a fold, but we MUST be able to win if a caller gets us to showdown. There is no single shove/fold % - it is truly dependant on 3 primary conditions: is the pot already open or not, the players left to act (position) and the stack sizes of all players still active in the hand.
M
marvbake
Rock Star
Silver Level
Everybody's different. Not everybody is familiar with the wide short stack shove strategy in MTT. Alot of people fold especially when they have great pot odds and are supposed to call.
Don't base your play off them. Base your play on what's the correct play. Alot of people shove light with very big stacks, small, or shove only with nut hands. Everybody's different. Play your game and make decisions based off that player alone, not by judging him to be representative of the sample size of hands you've played in the buyin MTT.
Don't base your play off them. Base your play on what's the correct play. Alot of people shove light with very big stacks, small, or shove only with nut hands. Everybody's different. Play your game and make decisions based off that player alone, not by judging him to be representative of the sample size of hands you've played in the buyin MTT.