Multiple calling stations

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AcesFullOfDonks

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Okay, this weekend I have an MTT coming up. As far as I'm aware, the people I will be playing are essentially all fish. Loose-passive fish. One or two LAGfish as well. But the.majority are loose-passive.
I'm generally a tight player PF and play in position where possible. My question is simple; how should I be playing my drawing hands from LP and EP? i.e. AJ-AK and suited connectors? (I won't be playing suited connectors from EP, only premiums). If I raise from EP with premium drawing hands, (not PP) I expect I'll have multiple callers just hoping to see a flop. Should I be limping instead and hope to catch a large piece of the flop? I don't expect most of these players to be folding much, probably going to showdown with A-High. So, limping or raising? If I raise and miss the flop, where do I go from there? That's extra chips lost against these people, surely?
Should I be raising from LP with premiums knowing every caller before me will probably call and donk into me on the flop if they catch a piece?
Any and all answers are really appreciated, I need help here! There's a fair amount of money at stake! Thanks and good luck at the tables!
 
TheKAAHK

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I play a few live games like this. I find that limping Ax suited hands and mid suited connectors early is ok because you'll rarely face a raise. If you hit the flop, bet out and get paid. Small bets work great. In lp, after lots of limping, be sure to raise pretty much anything you play, but also keep it small. 2.5x and maybe .5bb for every limper at most. Or even just a straight 3x regardless. You'll see a lot of check/call lines from them so if you miss, you can check back the flop. Reassess on the turn and if any A or paint hit, bet it and watch them fold.

Not usually a good idea to build big pots with passive players since they will chase and call with anything. Keep bleeding them until effective stacks are low, then you can start applying pressure in position with your prems.
 
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If someone limps before me I make big amount of raise like ~1,5x of pot or 4,5,6 bb depends of blinds. IP if you totally miss the flop just check back you dont have to win every pot. If you see any draw like belly, gutshot, flush, backdoor flush, over pairs try bet. Sometimes big raise against donk bet works.
 
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AcesFullOfDonks

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I play a few live games like this. I find that limping Ax suited hands and mid suited connectors early is ok because you'll rarely face a raise. If you hit the flop, bet out and get paid. Small bets work great. In lp, after lots of limping, be sure to raise pretty much anything you play, but also keep it small. 2.5x and maybe .5bb for every limper at most. Or even just a straight 3x regardless. You'll see a lot of check/call lines from them so if you miss, you can check back the flop. Reassess on the turn and if any A or paint hit, bet it and watch them fold.

Not usually a good idea to build big pots with passive players since they will chase and call with anything. Keep bleeding them until effective stacks are low, then you can start applying pressure in position with your prems.

Should I be betting the turn aggressively if an A or high Broadway card hits? Even if I'm playing suited connectors? I don't like the idea of bluffing into these players as I have little to no fold equity. Thanks for your reply.
 
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AcesFullOfDonks

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If someone limps before me I make big amount of raise like ~1,5x of pot or 4,5,6 bb depends of blinds. IP if you totally miss the flop just check back you dont have to win every pot. If you see any draw like belly, gutshot, flush, backdoor flush, over pairs try bet. Sometimes big raise against donk bet works.

So I should be raising their draws and making them pay to catch it? Should I vary my bet size based on the likelihood of the draw? i.e. Make a pot sized bet into a gutshot draw but only a 1/2 pot bet into a flush draw etc etc.
Should I be betting my own draws and building a pot or checking OOP and IP and hoping for a free card? Then value bet if it comes? Thanks for your response.
 
TheKAAHK

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Players like this generally assume you are raising pre with only a decent Ax hand or big paint and big pockets because that is their only pre raising range. By betting scare cards they will think "he had to have raised with big cards and that's a big card so he hit it" and little else.

Also remember that if they are willing to chase a draw or call middle pair to a small bet they will do the same with a big bet. There is no need with decent stacks to be making those big bets unless you flop or turn the near nuts. Smallball pots early in the structure are a great way of feeling out who likes to risk with what without losing too much stack in the process to a bad draw.
 
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AcesFullOfDonks

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Players like this generally assume you are raising pre with only a decent Ax hand or big paint and big pockets because that is their only pre raising range. By betting scare cards they will think "he had to have raised with big cards and that's a big card so he hit it" and little else.

Also remember that if they are willing to chase a draw or call middle pair to a small bet they will do the same with a big bet. There is no need with decent stacks to be making those big bets unless you flop or turn the near nuts. Smallball pots early in the structure are a great way of feeling out who likes to risk with what without losing too much stack in the process to a bad draw.

I'm not overly fantastic at playing small ball, especially if a LAG comes over the top of me, but I'll give it a shot when I'm IP.
Will these players really be thinking about my range though? Surely they'll only be paying attention to their own cards? I know one or two players are more adept and willing to fold to scare cards but is it worth betting the scare cards against multiple callers?
 
TheKAAHK

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They won't be thinking much about your range, beyond basic perceptions. If a lag comes over top then it's really a matter of what you perceive their range to be and your relative strength. You will have more options (and folding is always a viable option btw) when you have less chips in the pot relative to your effective stacks. Hard to say hypothetically.
As for the worth of being scare cards against multiple callers goes, it's a yes and no situation. You'll find a few drop out and can possibly narrow the range of the hangers and best plan how to proceed on the next street. The board texture will help dictate that. Monotone or obvious straight boards are usually worthless to you to bet unless you have the strong end of the draw. Random boards are better since your "top pair" will usually be better than their lower pair or gutshot type hand.

Again hard to say without being there.

I mostly play and advocate this strategy against loose passive fish because it provides more options postflop than essentially playing for stacks every hand. Even minbetting works wonders. Against these players it's more a matter that you made a bet than how much you bet.
 
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AcesFullOfDonks

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They won't be thinking much about your range, beyond basic perceptions. If a lag comes over top then it's really a matter of what you perceive their range to be and your relative strength. You will have more options (and folding is always a viable option btw) when you have less chips in the pot relative to your effective stacks. Hard to say hypothetically.
As for the worth of being scare cards against multiple callers goes, it's a yes and no situation. You'll find a few drop out and can possibly narrow the range of the hangers and best plan how to proceed on the next street. The board texture will help dictate that. Monotone or obvious straight boards are usually worthless to you to bet unless you have the strong end of the draw. Random boards are better since your "top pair" will usually be better than their lower pair or gutshot type hand.

Again hard to say without being there.

I mostly play and advocate this strategy against loose passive fish because it provides more options postflop than essentially playing for stacks every hand. Even minbetting works wonders. Against these players it's more a matter that you made a bet than how much you bet.

Fantastic responses, thank you. I'll bear these in mind at the table this weekend. Just one more question if you've got time to answer it. Let's say I'm in LP with a pocket pair and I raise and get a few calls. Flop comes down and I make a set on a heavy drawing board. Someone in EP donks into me. Obviously I assume they either hit here or are on a draw. Because of their willingness to chase a draw, do I just call and hope they don't catch a card or do I raise it...and raise it BIG and hope to scare them off, knowing that I currently have the nuts or near nuts? I wouldn't be afraid to shove in this situation but would it be the right call against a loose passive player?
Thanks again! You've been a great help.
 
TheKAAHK

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That's a tricky one. For me, the shallower my stack the more I'm willing to find a way to get it in in that situation. If by doing so you scare them off and take the pot right there then so be it. But I'd never advocate betting to scare someone off. Either bet (or raise) for value, bluff or pot control. Since pot control is hard to acomplish when your opponent isn't thinking past their nose and bluffing is in the same boat, then betting for value is the only viable option. How best to go about it is entirely up to you based on your in-game reads.
 
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AcesFullOfDonks

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Thanks once again, absolutely sound advice. I'll post my results on here after the tournament and let you know how your methods worked out for me. Thank you!
 
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AcesFullOfDonks

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Great advice from TheKAAHK. I went into this tournament and absolutely dominated. After about 20 minutes I was the overwhelming chip leader (Think of Joe McKeehen at the 2015 wsop, this is how stacked I was). Value bet every street, didn't miss any value and eventually won the tournament. Really helped when I was running well too!
 
blackdevil724

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Always raise...in long turn with strong hands against loose-pasive players you will elwin a lot of pots..iff you dont make them pay i those, blinds will kill you while waiting for those hands..
 
TheKAAHK

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Glad to hear that it worked so well for you Aces. This strat can work against the same opponents multiple times with a few minor adjustments depending on how they keep reacting to you. Hell, I've been using this for years at my local game and it still does well for me.
 
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