Less than 20 Blinds

[Queenlimp]

My tight position play is allowing me to go late into tourneys.


I'm noticing as the end game phase develops in tourneys, I find myself with a dwindling stack (less than 30 BB).
In this instance, every hand played can be stack damaging.
I find myself in situations requiring shoves, which as I view it, negates early round discipline. Furthermore, large chip stacks greatly open their range, discounting quality hand I may be holding, pre-flop.


Any advise/strategy to address/avoid this scenario as the progression to the final table begins? or should I have simply played more hands during the middle game to increase my stack size?

 

[bellicoso]

It's not bad to be really conservative early on, but to make it to the end you have to take some risks. Later in the game, you need to widen your range and be prepared to call some all-in shoves. While I try to make sure I've got four to five times the shover's stack, that's not always feasible. There are going to be times, especially if you're short-stacked, where you'll need to be willing to sacrifice 100% of your chips to move forward.

Try to maximize your bets (without shoving) when you've got a good hand. I usually open with a pot-bet and subsequently half-pot bet (to the river if necessary) when I feel I've got the win. This allows me to build a good-sized stack during the course of the game, to prevent being short-stacked if I make it to the later levels.

 

[Acesinthebig]

Sounds you have to find more steal spots to pick some chips up for free heading into the later stages.

 

[Pablo22]

If you are playing tight and convey that image you should be able to work in some steals.

 

[TheDude6622]

If you are playing tight and convey that image you should be able to work in some steals.

I have used this strategy multiple times. It works very effectively if you are playing a conservative style. Also depends on your early table draw. If you witness everyone playing tight, you may have to loosen up from time to time to pick up some pots.

 

[gryphon3005]

Everyone I'm sure has been in the situation you describe more than once, me included. If luck doesn't build your stack in the middle part of the tournament then you need to find another way because you'll be in blind trouble before you reach the bubble. That usually means taking a few chances by raising when you have position to steal the blinds and get the limpers to fold. Of course your cards don't matter in these hands....it's position and aggression that makes the difference.

 

[Queenlimp]

For sure it's good having the tight image to pick up a few blinds.
I typically do it enough to compensate for the cost of blinds to maintain my stack.


I guess there is no special recipe to this circumstance without expanding range and assuming more risk.

 

[duson]

As others have said work on stealing blinds but also consider widening your range when defending your own blinds. Also if you're known as a tight player you might be able to get away with some more bluffs mixed in.

 

[kristersb123]

Try to steal some pots (not making risking bets), don't play agressive at start and very tight to the end, that would cost those situations in my experience and if you have a really good preflop hand make a bigger raise

 

[playinggameswithu]

Yea MTTs are gambles you should be looking for 3 to 1 or betters to get your money in. The entire point of a MTT is skilled gambling. That means you play semi-tight aggressive post flop but ultimately those all in moments will occur and you want 3 to 1 or better in these or else avoid them. less than 12 BB and I ship it with K9s or better.

 

[honorwar]

I play very tight in the beginning. I hate to lose too early so I almost never go all in I just call.

 

[Queenlimp]

Yea MTTs are gambles you should be looking for 3 to 1 or betters to get your money in. The entire point of a MTT is skilled gambling. That means you play semi-tight aggressive post flop but ultimately those all in moments will occur and you want 3 to 1 or better in these or else avoid them. less than 12 BB and I ship it with K9s or better.

Your the first person I've heard referring to MTT players being gamblers.
I must say, it appears true. 3 to 1 sounds like a worthy compensation.
Middle to late rounds; I get called by big stacks so often.
I try to avoid calling in position with marginal hands, but maybe I should reconsider.
This is because of the ideal that calling is much weaker than opening a raise.

My recent Cardschat freerolls (with a field of less than 30), Ive lost 2 pair to Q 10 with no apparent draw (opponent had x 3 my chips). Same dynamics, lost x4 BB pre-flop raise (in position) to J5 (opponent had x6 my stack).


When BB represents on average 10% of the average chip stack, trying to steal blinds is risky.
Playing one premium hand will represent at least 50% your stack with a continuation bet.


It seems to me taking more risk before this circumstance develops would be ideal.
During middle/late rounds everyone's gambling. The field drastically decreases by 50%.
Every pre-flop pair is pushing.

 

[63burner]

Tight beginning, when to switch it up..

It is tempting to be super tight, to advance up the ladder. I'm not saying, "flip the switch, play like a maniac..". With time and experience, you will find yourself, , and know, "I think it's time to loosen up some, steal a few.."
Others may give you advice to follow, it worked for them; perhaps it will for you also.
Since you are at this learning forum, I believe that your gained skill will answer the "when to loosen up" question for you.

 

[kraemer]

I think most beginners are too focused on going ITM. They avoid risks and reach ITM with a small stack.

But consider this: if you make it to the final table once you probably earn more than if you min cash 10 times.

You will not be successful in tourneys without a bit of luck. So you can take a few more risks early on to keep a Stack that allows you to play for the top positions

 

[kowrip]

That sounds pretty normal for tournament play. You can play tight through the early rounds, but a lot of times the very tight play scares everybody away and you find yourself winning just the blinds or a very small pot. After the blinds increase several times and the antes start, you can often be surprised just how quickly you find yourself with a short stack. At that point, you don't really have a choice but to be very aggressive to try to accumulate chips. That pretty much means either pushing all-in pre-flop or seeing a flop and then deciding whether to push or fold. You just have to hope that you accumulate enough chips by forcing folds or doubling up so that you can get back to playing a more normal game. I think the key is to try to avoid getting into this situation by loosening up your starting requirements as soon as the antes start. It might feel a little strange opening with more hands, but it's the correct thing to do mathematically. There is more money in the pot to start, so you don't need to be successful as often. As a bonus, you'll also get to see more flops and hopefully hit a few of them hard to build up your stack. This approached has worked pretty well for me through the middle stages.

 

[bakreni]

just play tigth shove only on 15 bb end less...play normal

 

[playinggameswithu]

Your the first person I've heard referring to MTT players being gamblers.
I must say, it appears true. 3 to 1 sounds like a worthy compensation.
Middle to late rounds; I get called by big stacks so often.
I try to avoid calling in position with marginal hands, but maybe I should reconsider.
This is because of the ideal that calling is much weaker than opening a raise.

My recent Cardschat freerolls (with a field of less than 30), Ive lost 2 pair to Q 10 with no apparent draw (opponent had x 3 my chips). Same dynamics, lost x4 BB pre-flop raise (in position) to J5 (opponent had x6 my stack).


When BB represents on average 10% of the average chip stack, trying to steal blinds is risky.
Playing one premium hand will represent at least 50% your stack with a continuation bet.


It seems to me taking more risk before this circumstance develops would be ideal.
During middle/late rounds everyone's gambling. The field drastically decreases by 50%.
Every pre-flop pair is pushing.

Cash structure = 99.9% skill game as long as you are bank roll managing and put in huge volume. MTT structure = skillED not skill game real gambling 65% luck 35% skills

 

[akmost]

Having less than 30bbs is not as scary as you might think. For players who seek the final table or a deep run 15-20bbs in the threshold to open shove or 3bet jam.Having 30bbs+ is considered a good amount of chips!

Every MTT player knows very well that at some point he must play some critical flips, you can't avoid them it's part of the game. They can eliminate you or they can boost your stack. If you want less flips and more post flop game I think cash games will work better for you.

I don't know how much is the percentage of luck you need in a MTT but surely I can't write here a random number of percentage but I can tell you for sure that if you study some spots you can always make the +EV moves and this is what the winning MTTers do. I don't think that MTT crushers are just luckier than the other , they just have studied more some spots.

I would suggest you to study:

1- BB defence , overfolding or overcalling is a leak in this spot ,
2-try some isolation moves against LP loose players.Incorporate in your game some 3bets it is vital for your improvement overall
3-Stop being passive, if you are, because aggression pays more,
4-You must always know what to do, open shove / defend , in an unopened pot in a blind vs blind situation.
5-Label the players in order to know every time against what kind of opponent you are facing. Calling Stations and Very Tight ones are the two main categories you should note ASAP.

 

[FernA9ndo]

If you can win more chips early, you will can have an arsenal to use against the aggression that can damage your stack. Its because stealing blinds near the bubble and final tables will be normal good plays and deep stack with 60BB you could raise and fold, 3Bet and fold depending of your opponents and the others stacks at the table, this will be very important to know to adapt.

 

[Queenlimp]

A HUD sounds helpful. Unfortunately, my old style play needs help. With a healthy bankroll, not much of a concern because my optimal play overcomes the variance.
Once I get back to a more manageable style, I'll lose so much thoughtful comments because realistically, there are not that many people that's serious about getting better although many talk a lot! The gap affords good players to make a living!!!!!!!!

 

[milka1605]

You will not be able to have a stack anymore in the early stages, since you still need a good card. And she does not always come. I also have to take risks with 10BB and go for all the chips. With 20BB, you can still be patient and pick up a map.

 

[Queenlimp]

In hindsight, my earlier comment did not make sense because there is nothing wrong thinking through how to approach the game and asking questions, and it is helpful for other players to share their thoughts even if the thought is straight forward (serving as affirmation).


By players not trying to get better, I'm referring to the constant reckless play of some who constantly wants to talk about some specific detail of the game. There is no sense in getting upset when a gross hand takes you down. I guess it's just a part of poker. Thanks everyone for your comments. Thanks for the thoughtful post AKMOST

 

[akmost]

Thanks for the thoughtful post AKMOST

Anytime Queenlimp , wish I could be more specific with ranges etc but you know that everything in this game depends in several factors , I am still learning too

 

[xbronk]

I think you have to stop playing to be in prizes and start playing to win the tournament so that when you get to those instances you have a considerable stack to open a little more your game luck greetingsuke:uke:

 

[xbronk]

I think that pokerstars poker school rules do not apply to your website I've seen so many AKs die against marginal hands so many times that I play in that same way as you said it is not a premium hand until you hit a pair good luck greetings