KK in the BB with 6 BB and Two Away from ITM--What Would You Do?

S

sundizzel

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Title says it all really. 2 spots away from the money in the big blind with 6 BB and KK against a button limp and small blind min raise. You know you're getting called by any two cards by at least the small blind and hoping to win but knowing it's just another flip two spots away from the money. Do you ever fold here? I don't, but I'm curious to hear what you guys think.


Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 2,500/5,000 (600 ante) - 7 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 89,572 (18 bb)
MP: 12,184 (2 bb)
MP+1: 192,971 (39 bb)
CO: 225,664 (45 bb)
BU: 112,552 (23 bb)
SB: 432,693 (87 bb)
BB (Hero): 31,270 (6 bb)

Pre-Flop: (11,700) Hero is BB with K K
4 players fold, BTN calls 5,000, SB raises to 10,000, Hero 3-bets to 30,670 (all-in), 1 fold, SB calls 20,670

Flop: (70,540) 3 7 T (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (70,540) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (70,540) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: 70,540

Showdown:
BB (Hero) shows K K (a pair of Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 85%, Flop: 80%, Turn: 80%, River: 0%)

SB shows J T (two pair, Jacks and Tens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 15%, Flop: 20%, Turn: 20%, River: 100%)

SB wins 70,540
 
D

donpiatnik

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Title says it all really. 2 spots away from the money in the big blind with 6 BB and KK against a button limp and small blind min raise. You know you're getting called by any two cards by at least the small blind and hoping to win but knowing it's just another flip two spots away from the money. Do you ever fold here? I don't, but I'm curious to hear what you guys think.


Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 2,500/5,000 (600 ante) - 7 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 89,572 (18 bb)
MP: 12,184 (2 bb)
MP+1: 192,971 (39 bb)
CO: 225,664 (45 bb)
BU: 112,552 (23 bb)
SB: 432,693 (87 bb)
BB (Hero): 31,270 (6 bb)

Pre-Flop: (11,700) Hero is BB with K K
4 players fold, BTN calls 5,000, SB raises to 10,000, Hero 3-bets to 30,670 (all-in), 1 fold, SB calls 20,670

Flop: (70,540) 3 7 T (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (70,540) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (70,540) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: 70,540

Showdown:
BB (Hero) shows K K (a pair of Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 85%, Flop: 80%, Turn: 80%, River: 0%)

SB shows J T (two pair, Jacks and Tens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 15%, Flop: 20%, Turn: 20%, River: 100%)

SB wins 70,540


Easy all in!

Maybe if itm is equal for everyone, so let's say a high value ticket is price, (and I know I'll almost certainly win without this all in, I'd discard it...)
 
Alex70793

Alex70793

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Bad luck, it happens.
The player on the small blind has a large stack, so playing the TJ hand is a normal move, especially against two short stacks, the maximum that he will lose here is 6bb, for his stack this is a minor loss.
So in this hand, everyone played correctly, and as usually happens, someone was more lucky, someone was less lucky, this is poker.
 
F

fundiver199

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If SB is raising 30% of hands, then you have 77% equity against his range, so this is a great chance to continue in the tournament with a 14BB stack rather than just 5BB. Which will not only increase your chance of making a deep run but also your chance of cashing, since you cant always be sure to cash with a 5BB stack especially in small field MTTs. The 2BB stack might get a dubble, nobody else gets it in against each other, and suddenly you are the player at risk anyway, and usually with a hand much worse than KK.

Its a super trivial spot, and no offense to you, but I dont understand, why people even bother posting hands like this? Yes it sucks to bust near the bubble, and maybe it can make you feel better for a few minutes to let others share your pain. But there is absolutely nothing to learn from a hand like this, because its solely about good/bad luck also known as dispersion or variance.
 
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fundiver199

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If we actually want to learn and improve, there is no point in focusing on, what to do with KK, because we know already, that its an obvious jam, and that we are printing money by getting it in. The much more interesting question is what to do with those hands, that are not so clear cut. Like maybe ATo, KQs, 77.

To get an idea about this we ideally want to work with a program like ICMizer, which can calculate the chip EP, when everyone play optimal, and make adjustments for ICM (hence the name). The exact result will depend on the payout structure, how many players are left, and stack sizes at the other tables. Since I dont have that information, I need to make some assumptions:

* Tournament is a 1.000 man normal on Winning Poker Network.
* 182 players left (180 gets paid)
* Average stack on the other tables is the same as on Heros table
* I let the program distribute the other stack sizes manually

With these assumptions here are the results:

* BTN is supposed to be limping 17% of hands
* SB is supposed to be min-raising 56% of hands
* Hero is supposed to jam 4,3% of hands (99+, AQ+, AJs)

So unsurpricingly this is a situation, where Hero is supposed to play tight, because he has limited fold equity (ICMizer actually assume some though), and with so many tables running, Hero is likely to be in the money, before the blinds come back to him again. However KK is still a jam, and folding KK would be a bigger mathematical mistake than jamming 72o. Those hands, I mentioned earlier on, are all a fold though.
 
Z

Zirkzee

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It depends on how much more prize money you win after winning the pot and how much money you make on average if you fold. Let's say if you fold you are to 100% in the prize money. However, you won't stay in the tournament much longer because your stack is very small. You have to go all in with a marginal hand. This means you will likely be eliminated after the tournament's first payout. Let's say you win $ 10 with the first payout in the tournament. If you win the pot you will win an average of $ 12. You can assume that your opponent has made a minraise with a wide range of hands. That's why you can assume an equity of 85%. Now you can calculate your average profit after a fold or a push.

push: 0.85 * $ 12 = $ 10.2

fold: $ 10

Of course, if you make different assumptions you will get different results. But I think, despite taking ICM into account, a push was definitely the right one. It's hard to fold KK either way. I probably wouldn't have either.
 
LFC_yllnwa

LFC_yllnwa

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NZ
Of course, this is not a very simple situation, BUT when I opened the replay of CARDSCHAT, I saw a very short stack after you and thought, this is your chance to survive, but...
In this situation, it is very important to know whether there are short stacks at other tables or not! And I didn't understand, the prizes are only top 5? What kind of tournament?
If you fail the middle or final stage and your goal is only minimal money and there are short stacks in the game, you must sit until the end! Sit and wait, there's nothing else left for you..

Can you say throwing away KK is stupid and not possible? You should have thought about it earlier, when you had the opportunity to play and the chips allowed you to do it... Right now, it's a difficult fold, but as you correctly noted, any trash will play against you, so your card doesn't matter... You can only hope for luck, when you put the preflop all-in.. You can't throw out only AA, all other cards, play fold without problems, if the goal is to enter the money!
 
filippfilm

filippfilm

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Title says it all really. 2 spots away from the money in the big blind with 6 BB and KK against a button limp and small blind min raise. You know you're getting called by any two cards by at least the small blind and hoping to win but knowing it's just another flip two spots away from the money. Do you ever fold here? I don't, but I'm curious to hear what you guys think.


Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 2,500/5,000 (600 ante) - 7 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 89,572 (18 bb)
MP: 12,184 (2 bb)
MP+1: 192,971 (39 bb)
CO: 225,664 (45 bb)
BU: 112,552 (23 bb)
SB: 432,693 (87 bb)
BB (Hero): 31,270 (6 bb)

Pre-Flop: (11,700) Hero is BB with K K
4 players fold, BTN calls 5,000, SB raises to 10,000, Hero 3-bets to 30,670 (all-in), 1 fold, SB calls 20,670

Flop: (70,540) 3 7 T (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (70,540) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (70,540) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: 70,540

Showdown:
BB (Hero) shows K K (a pair of Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 85%, Flop: 80%, Turn: 80%, River: 0%)

SB shows J T (two pair, Jacks and Tens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 15%, Flop: 20%, Turn: 20%, River: 100%)

SB wins 70,540


















Then fold and enter the prizes . multipod with two players who beat your stack even with AA is not profitable if we are talking about 2 places from itm . Then going to the prizes you could choose the moment where one on one and olinit on any of your 2 cards

 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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Title says it all really. 2 spots away from the money in the big blind with 6 BB and KK against a button limp and small blind min raise. You know you're getting called by any two cards by at least the small blind and hoping to win but knowing it's just another flip two spots away from the money. Do you ever fold here? I don't, but I'm curious to hear what you guys think.


Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 2,500/5,000 (600 ante) - 7 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 89,572 (18 bb)
MP: 12,184 (2 bb)
MP+1: 192,971 (39 bb)
CO: 225,664 (45 bb)
BU: 112,552 (23 bb)
SB: 432,693 (87 bb)
BB (Hero): 31,270 (6 bb)

Pre-Flop: (11,700) Hero is BB with K K
4 players fold, BTN calls 5,000, SB raises to 10,000, Hero 3-bets to 30,670 (all-in), 1 fold, SB calls 20,670

Flop: (70,540) 3 7 T (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (70,540) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (70,540) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: 70,540

Showdown:
BB (Hero) shows K K (a pair of Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 85%, Flop: 80%, Turn: 80%, River: 0%)

SB shows J T (two pair, Jacks and Tens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 15%, Flop: 20%, Turn: 20%, River: 100%)

SB wins 70,540



Would you even post this hand or ask this question if you had won the pot??

Come on dude...if you aren't willing to go broke with KKs off 6bb on the money bubble - then maybe play rummy or spades or something other than poker...

Not trying to be a huge douche - I want these comments to offend you and to hit home - but that's because I want you to understand the bigger picture here....you are asking the wrong questions and wasting everyone's time posting hands like this that you should KNOW are correct.

If you aren't willing to go broke with KKs, then what hands ARE you willing to go broke with?

Instead of asking about going broke with KKs...why not ask what hands can I go broke with in this spot 6bb and 2 off the money? Concentrate on the ranges involved instead of losing with KKs.
 
S

sundizzel

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If I was looking to improve the play or felt like I had played it wrong, I would have posted it in the hand analysis sub-forum.

As such, I simply posted it because it was a bit of fun, and I was wondering if anyone actually folds there to get into the money.

Specifically to Jon Poker, why even comment if you are going to be a huge douche? And just saying you're not trying to be a huge douche when you are being a huge douche means you're an even bigger douche. :)

Usually a nice forum, but I guess I'll just stop visiting and posting. Good luck with your poker career!
 
perrypip

perrypip

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Shoving gave you the chance to win more than a mincash. Folding your way to a mincash is not a good strategy. You won't be ITM enough to be profitable with such a small return.
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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If I was looking to improve the play or felt like I had played it wrong, I would have posted it in the hand analysis sub-forum.

As such, I simply posted it because it was a bit of fun, and I was wondering if anyone actually folds there to get into the money.

Specifically to Jon Poker, why even comment if you are going to be a huge douche? And just saying you're not trying to be a huge douche when you are being a huge douche means you're an even bigger douche. :)

Usually a nice forum, but I guess I'll just stop visiting and posting. Good luck with your poker career!


I was giving you a reality check - I don't sugar coat things. You asked a legitimate ignorant question that is a waste of most folks time here...had you asked moreso about what your ranges here should be - that would be more valid. Asking about KKs specifically opens yourself to this kind of ridicule. Poker is a rough game, and if you don't have thick enougj skin to endure my harsh words than you certainly cannot handle what the game itself will throw at you.

This is a nice forum with lots of nice folks - don't stop posting because I'm a dick. Just know that if you post sub par questions, I will rip you for it lol. At the end of the day, it is what it is - I was honest and said I meant for my words to resonate with you and I hope they did. Turn that drive to defend yourself into more reasonable thinking and use it!

Good luck with your game. Perhaps next time I won't be so rough on you.

Edit:: To answer the question legitimately - I am ONLY folding KK if this is a satty tournament and i am at least 6+ places from busting - leaving 4 villans shorter than me. Nothing to play for in sattys other than securing the prize - so if I got it pretty well locked up - then there is no point to risk busting.
 
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fundiver199

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As such, I simply posted it because it was a bit of fun, and I was wondering if anyone actually folds there to get into the money.

And these types of posts seem to be very popular on Cardschat. There is also one right now in "online poker", where someone ask, if people would ever fold AA preflop. He then claim, he did it, because 6 other players had moved all-in already, and "one of them will always get lucky". Its almost to the point, where I suspect, he might be trolling. And even if he is serious, he is just killing his own and other peoples time. Which at least to me is not the purpose of a poker forum ;)
 
MAGICUZ

MAGICUZ

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All the heroes played their hands correctly, just out of luck, this is normal in poker
 
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fundiver199

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All the heroes played their hands correctly, just out of luck, this is normal in poker

Strictly speaking SB should either have completed or folded with JTo. Min-raising out of position against two players, one of whom is extremely short, does not really accomplish anything. He is never getting both opponents to fold, and raising JTo is certainly not for value.
 
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