Just how aggressive must you be to consistently cash/win?

[NeverEnough]

I'll start by saying I play live MTTs with 20 minute levels. A lot of calling stations and hyper aggressive people each time. I don't play online for real money.

I'm not a terrible player, and I have cashed. However, I know I'm by no means a great player either and that I have holes in my game. One of which, I believe, is that I need to be more/more often aggressive.

Whenever I get to the final table, or final two tables, I notice lots of folks with a ton of chips. I never seem to be one of those guys. I'm not the short stack, but I'm not a big stack either.

For example, I know that when I get down below 15 or 10 BBs I still play too tight hoping to get cards instead of shoving ATC.

In the beginning of MTTs, I play pretty tight. I loosen up my range as the blinds increase, but I would not be surprised if I'm still too tight. For example, I muck weak aces early unless I'm on the button or BB/SB. I don't play suited or unsuited connectors too often. I rarely play 1 or 2 gappers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not afraid to put all my chips in if I believe I have the best hand or my bluff will pan out. I'm also pretty patient. I have no problem not getting involved in a lot of hands, but again, I may be too tight still.

I always open with a raise. Unless, I'm in the blind with junk then I, most times, will call/check.

For the most part, I have played a long ball style. However, lately I have been mixing some small ball in and liking it.

I guess I'm just looking to get a discussion started on what I might want to look at doing/changing. I'm not trying to get crazy & be the hyper aggressive guy at the table.

I'm sure more info is needed so feel free to ask. :cheers:

 

[micalupagoo]

Id loosen up in the beginning when blinds are small, tighten as it goes on, more aggression near the bubble usually a good way to get extra chips

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

Id loosen up in the beginning when blinds are small, tighten as it goes on, more aggression near the bubble usually a good way to get extra chips

Do the opposite of this. Unless you are really skilled post flop (which many incl. me are not) keep it tight when blinds are small. You won't win enough chips to make it worth your time trying to steal and play more hands and you'll just run into monsters more because most good tourney players are tight early on. When blinds go up and stealing adds a significant portion to your stack you should up the aggression. Also, stacks are shallower so many hands play themselves and you won't get into as many horrible spots where you don't know where you don't know where you are.
Bubble aggression is obv but don't try and be blindly aggressive to everyone, not everyone will fold to it.

 

[jordanbillie]

You mention that you don't play online for money, but playing some 6 max super turbos will really help you grasp shoving/calling ranges (which is the weakest part of most live players' game.)

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

I think playing standard turbo SnGs or MTTSnGs will help, but probably a good idea to take a look at a chart or something first to get an idea. Otherwise you'll just be burning money.

 

[David G]

For example, I know that when I get down below 15 or 10 BBs I still play too tight hoping to get cards instead of shoving ATC.

"Too tight" is folding rather than being aggressive when you have a good spot. I don't think playing solid with 10-15 BB's is wrong at all and just because you do doesn't mean you need to shove atc at all times, even when in late position and folded to you. I'm fully aware a lot of people assume its a shove fest with 20 or less. Vast majority of play late in tournaments is with 20 BB's or less in tournament poker.

Poker's about adjusting. Don't worry about what stacks others have compared to you when you get deep, besides when considering implications of the actual real-time play. It doesn't help to try and change things by forcing it. Just play the best with what you have and find good spots. The best spots when you are short are uncontested situations or strong dominant hands where a raiser assumes he is priced in vs your shove or a caller calls b/c he thinks you're likely shoving atc. (which is a lot of the time these days).

You'll get a big stack one day, but in the meantime there's a ton of value in learning to work a short stack and play ICM, as tournament poker is 99% short stacked poker. May the best shortstacker win imo

 

[NeverEnough]

"Too tight" is folding rather than being aggressive when you have a good spot. I don't think playing solid with 10-15 BB's is wrong at all and just because you do doesn't mean you need to shove atc at all times, even when in late position and folded to you. I'm fully aware a lot of people assume its a shove fest with 20 or less. Vast majority of play late in tournaments is with 20 BB's or less in tournament poker.

Poker's about adjusting. Don't worry about what stacks others have compared to you when you get deep, besides when considering implications of the actual real-time play. It doesn't help to try and change things by forcing it. Just play the best with what you have and find good spots. The best spots when you are short are uncontested situations or strong dominant hands where a raiser assumes he is priced in vs your shove or a caller calls b/c he thinks you're likely shoving atc. (which is a lot of the time these days).

You'll get a big stack one day, but in the meantime there's a ton of value in learning to work a short stack and play ICM, as tournament poker is 99% short stacked poker. May the best shortstacker win imo

Great post, thanks. I guess I can't be doing too bad with my current style if I consistently get to final table/final 2 tables. I just want to win more. Losing sucks!

 

[kidkvno1]

Id loosen up in the beginning when blinds are small, tighten as it goes on, more aggression near the bubble usually a good way to get extra chips

Do the opposite of this. Unless you are really skilled post flop (which many incl. me are not) keep it tight when blinds are small. You won't win enough chips to make it worth your time trying to steal and play more hands and you'll just run into monsters more because most good tourney players are tight early on. When blinds go up and stealing adds a significant portion to your stack you should up the aggression. Also, stacks are shallower so many hands play themselves and you won't get into as many horrible spots where you don't know where you don't know where you are.
Bubble aggression is obv but don't try and be blindly aggressive to everyone, not everyone will fold to it.

+1
You have to be skilled to out play post flop, to play LAG.
you're playing to tight if your just playing the top 10 hands.

 

[NeverEnough]

+1
You have to be skilled to out play post flop, to play LAG.
you're playing to tight if your just playing the top 10 hands.

I'm most certainly not just playing the top 10.

 

[vinylspiros]

Do the opposite of this. Unless you are really skilled post flop (which many incl. me are not) keep it tight when blinds are small. You won't win enough chips to make it worth your time trying to steal and play more hands and you'll just run into monsters more because most good tourney players are tight early on. When blinds go up and stealing adds a significant portion to your stack you should up the aggression. Also, stacks are shallower so many hands play themselves and you won't get into as many horrible spots where you don't know where you don't know where you are.
Bubble aggression is obv but don't try and be blindly aggressive to everyone, not everyone will fold to it.

i AGREE TO THIS POST .well put.

 

[spiderman637]

Just Aggressivesness won't help... Patience mixed with aggressiveness will get u the cash consistently

 

[NeverEnough]

Just Aggressivesness won't help... Patience mixed with aggressiveness will get u the cash consistently

I have the patience already so I guess just adding aggression would based on your post LOL.

 

[sam1chips]

It is tough to relate standard online tourneys to live, deep stack tourneys just because of chip stacks. For example, in the live deeper stack tourneys, when you fall below 20 BB you are unofficially considered "short-stacked". However, when you look at the leaderboard an hour or so into a online tournament with 1500 starting stack, normally at least 75% of the field is below 20 BBs! At this point, it's tougher to loosen up and see a lot of flops even if you are one of the biggest stacks at the table, simply because the blinds are so high. At this point is where aggresiveness is usually the most fruitful (just my opinion).

 

[NeverEnough]

Got knocked out in 35th out of 137 entrants this weekend. I had about 10 BB left & shoved with KQo. Young guy, with hat low, sunglasses & earbuds in :sigh: that recently was moved to my table, calls with AJ. He rivers a flush.

 

[Arjonius]

It's not just about aggression, but also about being selective in terms of when and how to be, against whom, etc.

 

[NeverEnough]

I've only played a few MTTs since I last posted in this thread, but I feel like I'm maybe marginally a better player, if at all, at this point.

I still feel that I, for lack of a better phrase, play scared sometimes. I know I need to open up my range, especially when my stack is dwindling. I need to stop waiting for, not only premium hands, but even the next tier down. They don't come often enough to wait.

I feel like every time I pick a spot to steal or play a hand I don't normally play, it's always the wrong time and I get 3bet or run into hands that dominate me.

 

[KingCurtis]

Do the opposite of this. Unless you are really skilled post flop (which many incl. me are not) keep it tight when blinds are small. You won't win enough chips to make it worth your time trying to steal and play more hands and you'll just run into monsters more because most good tourney players are tight early on. When blinds go up and stealing adds a significant portion to your stack you should up the aggression. Also, stacks are shallower so many hands play themselves and you won't get into as many horrible spots where you don't know where you don't know where you are.
Bubble aggression is obv but don't try and be blindly aggressive to everyone, not everyone will fold to it.

I agree. I really started to focus on this too when I moved up in limits. Once you become a better reader, start paying attention to who you can be aggressive towards, and control the table overall, you will be unstoppable.

I used to preach and focus only on bubble play to the final table a lot when I coached here. It becomes second nature after a while and I think I coined a term a while back called "vacuuming" which is what happens when you become aggressive, control the table, and the players cannot adapt to your play, so the money is sucked right to you!

Play lower limits if you are scared of not making the money because you are playing for first in MTT's not for the min cash. This isn't like cash games, obv, and you will find that soon enough.

 

[NeverEnough]

Play lower limits if you are scared of not making the money because you are playing for first in MTT's not for the min cash. This isn't like cash games, obv, and you will find that soon enough.

I only play live. $75 a pop ain't cheap when you are not cashing on a regular basis.

I tried some online, but sure seemed rigged. (ACR)

 

[KingCurtis]

I only play live. $75 a pop ain't cheap when you are not cashing on a regular basis.

I tried some online, but sure seemed rigged. (ACR)

.

You're right. Definitely not cheap but then again if you where staying true to proper BRM then it shouldn't be a worry how much it is. Also, I do understand that there are hardly any tournaments live that have a buy-in any less than $75 so it is understandable!

Playing live doesn't change much imo, as far as aggression and the bubble. I think that you should write down some hands that are interesting during these stages and bring them here to be analyzed!

 

[dj11]

Each of us has a built in 'Aggression Meter' that only we can read. We all know that 100% would mean shoving every hand regardless, and 0% would mean doing absolutely nothing ever at the table.

So for purposes of discussion, lets say you read yourself as 30% agro, and feel you need to increase that. Ask yourself 'To what?" If you play play money, there would be no downside to doubling that 30% to 60%, real money there probably would be a downside.

When you read anyone suggesting increasing your agro 'rating', it is really easy to over react to that suggestion, when in fact it only suggests a small increase. Something like getting involved in 1 more hand every 2 orbits is a nice increase to work with, barely noticeable, hell, you will barely notice that. You could try 1 more hand per orbit, but that would be noticeable.

Where the commercial trackers come in, are that they quantify, and qualify your play into standard communicable numbers. So what you might think is 30% aggressive will likely look like a VPIP of 10 to the rest of the world.

Poker aggression can be learned. It is not related to social aggression.

Take anything I say with a grain of salt, 2 aspirins, and do NOT call anyone in the morning.....

 

[KingCurtis]

Each of us has a built in 'Aggression Meter' that only we can read. We all know that 100% would mean shoving every hand regardless, and 0% would mean doing absolutely nothing ever at the table.

So for purposes of discussion, lets say you read yourself as 30% agro, and feel you need to increase that. Ask yourself 'To what?" If you play play money, there would be no downside to doubling that 30% to 60%, real money there probably would be a downside.

When you read anyone suggesting increasing your agro 'rating', it is really easy to over react to that suggestion, when in fact it only suggests a small increase. Something like getting involved in 1 more hand every 2 orbits is a nice increase to work with, barely noticeable, hell, you will barely notice that. You could try 1 more hand per orbit, but that would be noticeable.

Where the commercial trackers come in, are that they quantify, and qualify your play into standard communicable numbers. So what you might think is 30% aggressive will likely look like a VPIP of 10 to the rest of the world.

Poker aggression can be learned. It is not related to social aggression.

Take anything I say with a grain of salt, 2 aspirins, and do NOT call anyone in the morning.....

Very interesting way to look at this dj! Sooo, asprin first or salt?

I agree though, especially with the % theory. I feel that this can change due to a situation though, and not stay consistent to a person. This is where becoming a skilled aggressor comes in because you have to be able to adapt to others, specifically when they start fighting back!

 

[sillymunchie]

ok read through this and what can i add thats not been said

Take into consideration your M ratio, this is how many times you can go around the table before you go bust,
Its always good to be aware of what the stack size is, now at the start of the MTT you are looking at your opponents to see what kind of people you are playing against (remembering the key players are the 2 people before and after you) as this is where most of your play will come from

Big importance of M is once you reach 10, on a full ring table this will probably be about 20BB, your looking for hands to get your chips in the middle, obv your not looking to start shoving A 8 suited etc etc, but hands like A K, A Q your just looking to get it in, the reason for this is, if you dont get called your increasing your stack size by 10%, but if somebody calls you, you can almost guarentee a 50 50 flip or better yet your dominating the opponent.... now remember your shoving from here, so even if you pick up A A i would be shoving, cus if you dont then opponents can take that out of your shoving range, as a result they can call you a little lighter

as you start to get to about 7M this would be approx 15BB i would even go as far to add suited connectors into your shoving range, your still at a stage where you can get a fold, and have a stack that can hurt opponents, so they will fold quite often, and when they do call, lets say you have 7 8s and they call with A 10 - A K, you will still double up 40% of the time, and when your that low on chips your looking for the double up

If somehow you make it to 5M, prety much 10BB, then your in the dead zone, your looking to shove any 2 cards because prety much you have very little hope of making it back without an urgent double up and when you do shove, anybody in the hand is prety much obliged to call

some people may say its drastic, but remember the key fact of MTT play, your playing to win, not playing to cash, so shove into people when you can hurt them and dont let yourself get too low, then using real BRM you should see a vast improvement in your tournament results

 

[KingCurtis]

I never really used the M zone stuff. I just stuck to how many BBs I had and it worked out well. I think that the M zone way of playing is just too much and not needed. That's my opinion though and I am making no offense!

 

[sillymunchie]

no offence taken, M zone is usually a term in MTTs, going by BB is fine,but genrally going by BB is for STTs without antes.
If your letting yourself get to 10-15 before hitting the shoves then your letting yourself get too low, cus at 20BB you dont have a stack to play post flop, if you miss you can cb but your prety much throwing away 6BB before you know where you stand, so going by BB is perfectly fine in my oppinion, as long as you can make a nice read of the table, for players that seem to call to often when they get to 20BB hoping to get lucky and what not then the Mzone is perfect for them

 

[dj11]

I never really used the M zone stuff. I just stuck to how many BBs I had and it worked out well. I think that the M zone way of playing is just too much and not needed. That's my opinion though and I am making no offense!

no offence taken, M zone is usually a term in MTTs, going by BB is fine,but genrally going by BB is for STTs without antes.
If your letting yourself get to 10-15 before hitting the shoves then your letting yourself get too low, cus at 20BB you dont have a stack to play post flop, if you miss you can cb but your prety much throwing away 6BB before you know where you stand, so going by BB is perfectly fine in my oppinion, as long as you can make a nice read of the table, for players that seem to call to often when they get to 20BB hoping to get lucky and what not then the Mzone is perfect for them

There is an extensive thread around here somewhere , where we pretty much hashed out the similarities of the two prevailing systems about judging where we are in a tourney, MTT or SnG.

IIRC, we figured neither the M theory, nor the BB theory proved superior.

It really boiled down to which system anyone is exposed to first.