Is It better to lead "Nut Flush draws" or check call down?

naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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I'm constantly finding myself In an unfavorable position when It comes to draws, I mean If I raise, It usually ends up with me being C/R and/or C/R A.I. Which really Is irking me In the wrong way, as I'm bleeding chips when I donk lead/fold to the A.I play, or when they go for the C/R and I call, I'm than screaming "I'm on the FKN draw PLZ hit:p ".

So what to do? Do you base your strategy by your opponent? Like exactly what do you base It on?

Plz help your friend who hates AKs+Draws:p
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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Here are 2 examples

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.75 Tournament, 350/700 Blinds 70 Ante (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/



saw flop | saw showdown

UTG (t6,800)
Hero (UTG+1) (t44,132)
MP1 (t37,296)
MP2 (t9,551)
MP3 (t109,001)
CO (t67,139)
Button (t113,181)
SB (t50,730)
BB (t23,960)

Hero's M: 26.27

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 4
heart.gif
, A
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1 fold, Hero raises to t1,645, 3 folds, CO calls t1,645, 2 folds, BB calls t945

Flop: (t5,915) 6
spade.gif
, K
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, 2
heart.gif
(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t2,839, CO raises to t8,400, 1 fold, Hero calls t5,561

Turn: (t22,715) Q
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t22,400, Hero folds

Total pot: t22,715

Results below:
CO didn't show

and the 2nd example

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.2 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds 5 Ante (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php



saw flop | saw showdown

Hero (MP) (t7,454)
CO (t4,425)
Button (t5,688)
SB (t2,940)
BB (t2,835)
UTG (t6,007)

Hero's M: 70.99

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4
heart.gif
, A
heart.gif

1 fold, Hero raises to t128, CO calls t128, 1 fold, SB calls t103, 1 fold

Flop: (t464) 10
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, Q
diamond.gif
, 7
heart.gif
(3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t269, CO raises to t4,292 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero folds

Total pot: t1,002

Results below:
CO didn't show
 
toots babos

toots babos

ex-tornament grinder
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Hand 1 good spot for the c bet semi bluff, AK will be a part of your early position raise so there's a chance you'll be able to take the pot there and then but once your villain makes such a massive re raise it's time to let go of your draw, it certainly doesn't look like you've been given the right price to go for it.

Hand 2 looks like you came across a maniac just ripping it in with Qx, easy "fold and move on" situation unless you feel like gambling ;)

Try playing these draws slower, especially when you are wedged in between 2 opponents and OOP
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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Hand 1 good spot for the c bet semi bluff, AK will be a part of your early position raise so there's a chance you'll be able to take the pot there and then but once your villain makes such a massive re raise it's time to let go of your draw, it certainly doesn't look like you've been given the right price to go for it.

Hand 2 looks like you came across a maniac just ripping it in with Qx, easy "fold and move on" situation unless you feel like gambling ;)

Try playing these draws slower, especially when you are wedged in between 2 opponents and OOP

If you noticed I'm OOP both times with the same exact holdings and both times I flop the draw, lol. Makes you wonder about me and A4s:)
 
toots babos

toots babos

ex-tornament grinder
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If you noticed I'm OOP both times with the same exact holdings and both times I flop the draw, lol. Makes you wonder about me and A4s:)

Yeah i noticed you were OOP in both hands, the only differences between the 2 hands are hand 1 is a good board to be c betting and is also a nice pot to take a stab at :)

I often like a small suited ace also but they sure can get you into trouble ;)
 
detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

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Flush draws are strong, and you see a lot of people betting them and even going AI (call or bet) with them.

One thing you have to remember is that on the river a bare flush draw only hits somewhere around 20% of the time which means you have to be getting 5 to 1 on your money to make a call with it or betting them out. Also, in games like omaha and o8 you better have close to the nut flush draw.

Semi bluffing flush isnt bad if you think there is a good chance you will win the pot with the bet.

Straights are much weaker draws, and should offer you about 6 to 1 on your money for a river call, and you better be darn sure you have at least a 33% chance of an opponents fold to bet it out. And you best be drawing to the higher end straights and not the dummy ends.

As far as which is better - betting them or calling them, that is a big case of the 'it depends'. Big stack near the bubble of a tourney, bet them strong, small stacks may even want to fold to any bet...ect...
 
B

BPEPFPDP

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On both situations you lost 'cause opponents was on CO positon, i think they got advantage on you. 1st example this situation very bad, you on UTG, and trying hit the flush vs big stack, he can put much pressue, and you can do some wrong decision. 2nd is better i prefer to try hit the flush, villain goes all-in looks like he trying to defend his hand, afraid something, again position is bad, but i like to gamble some, and on 2nd situation i try to hit the flush
 
Lucothefish

Lucothefish

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Hand 1 we are always raising or folding vs COs flop raise, I really don't like the flat call. With 7 left to act you could happily fold this pre at most tables.

Hand 2 is fine as played
 
ribaric

ribaric

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I like to lead but if my opponents have bigger stack then i check and bet if i get my flush
 
U

underdog140

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My Read on the First Hand

I would fold pre-flop, A4 suited is still just A4.

I'm not sure what the other player had but I would think they would re-raise with AK. So I wouldn't put them on that.

Looks like they have a big hand. Trips ... Aces .. KQ. It is possible but less likely they have a smaller flush draw as well.

Good fold on the turn.

My Read on the Second Hand:

CO has the queen and is re-raising to push out hands like yours. Has a smaller flush draw trying to pick up the pot with a semi bluff, I would call. Your A might be good if it hits and you have back door straight.


To answer your question on what to do with a flush draw. What I sometimes do is check raise depending on how the action went pre-flop and the amount of players in the hand. This makes your hand look strong and it hides your flush draw. If you are re-pushed all in than it is a case of .. if you want to gamble or not.
 
teepack

teepack

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It just depends on a lot of factors, including your chip stack and that of your opponents. One of my New Year's Resolutions this year is to stop chasing flushes and open-ended straights, but when you've got a suited pocket with the ace and then the flop hits two more of your suit, it is just hard to lay down the potential nuts. If you are first to act and you wind up check-calling the flop, a savvy opponent may pick up that you are on the flush draw and make you pay if the turn doesn't hit your flush. If I am last to act and it checks to me, I generally check it through to see if I can get it on the turn for free. However, if I feel my opponent is weak and did not connect with the board, I may go ahead and float a bet just to see if he will fold or just call. Now if they check-raise me, then I've got another decision to make.
 
B

butterstoch

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two different schools of thought on this. old school usually checks down to get a free card and prevents taking a decision if check raised. new school is all about pressure , implied odds specially if you feel that your opponent is just floating and not very confident about their holdings
 
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