Draws will call anyway

Amanda A

Amanda A

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"Draws will call anyway" this is something I often hear poker players say when they hit top pair and the board brings a flush/straight draw. They are saying draws will call anyway so it's ok to check and not worry about protecting top pair by betting, don't want to inflate the pot, etc.
I don't really understand this, if you can bet and set a price that makes it wrong for your opponent to call with their draw, don't you want to get your opponent to make a mistake and call? Isn't poker the battle of making less mistakes than your opponent?
Love to hear what others think!
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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Seems like whoever told you that checking top pair when villans could be on a draw has the concept backwards - when the board is dry and the turn does nothing to change the texture of the board, then we can check to induce bluffs or get worse hands to valuebet rivers for us -- but if the board is wet we certainly want to charge our villans for their draws - both for value and protection. If you give draws a free card they get to realize their equity without investing anything more into the pot.

I think alot of times people fear the reaper and say "well these idiots never fold a flush draw anyway, so no sense in me betting because if they hit it I'm just going to lose more" - and the reality is this attitude is not only ignorant, it's completely counter productive to playing the game as a whole. Opponents will miss their flush draw roughly 65% of the time, so that means I will win 2/3 of the pots that I continue value betting in, which also means I will win more chips by doing so. Who cares if they draw out on you, its only one hand. Don't get hung up too much on why they called you, a big reason is improperly sized turn bets - did you give them a good price to call? Maybe you shouldn't...don't price them out by being a fool and betting ridiculous, but bet larger to charge draws for hanging around the maximum with your strongest holdings.

Basically in a nutshell, we want to charge villans who have draws the maximum within reason, so we give them a bad price, they still call with their draws, and we just win more chips long term. Once more to drive it home...When draws can and will call you - bet for value and protection - charge the draws to continue - make more money!

Hopefully this helps. Seemed like you had your head wrapped around the subject pretty well. There are of course some nuances post flop that will stop us from betting and such - but in general, you get the concept here.
 
Luvepoker

Luvepoker

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I want them to call me with there draws. I set the price and if they want to overpay to draw against me that's fine. I will win the pot more often than not and that's OK by me.

The problem with many poker players is we forget the hands we win be never let go the ones we lose. We will always remember the rive that makes there gut shot draw or flush but again forget the time we beat them.
 
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zerosalex

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If its low stakes then expect callers. Of you are playing high stakes vs people that know how to play and not fish then if you make a decent bet they can and will fold. Unless those high stakes are low stakes for them. Ask yourself what they have to loose.
 
IntenseHeat

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I get them calling. If they're calling with suited garbage or small connectors, then of course they're not going fold after they pick up the draw. That's why they played those hands in the first place. But you have to make them pay for it. Maybe if they lose enough money chasing draws, they will learn not to call pre-flop raises with those weakish hands.

But never give them a free card to beat you with. In fact, don't assume that they are on a flush or straight draw. Consider the possibility. But don't assume. That's another reason you should be betting, to find out where they are and to give yourself more information to be able to put them on a hand.

I posted a thread a long time ago about a hand where I was dealt Aces. Two diamonds landed on the flop and I checked, thinking that my opponent might have been on a flush draw. Then a King of diamonds fell on the turn. I checked again, not wanting to be betting into a made flush. The river was another King. My opponent shipped almost 2200 into a pot of 350. I folded and he showed K-10 off. He was never on a flush draw. But by checking I gave him two free cards and he hit running Ks on me.

Never give them free cards to beat you with. You'll win bigger pots and teach them a lesson at the same time.
 
perrypip

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Yes make them overpay. They hit their flush 36% of the time. So 64% of the time you make more money and 36% you lose more. Realize your 64% equity.
 
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fundiver199

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Jon Poker explained it very well. Just want to add, that made hands have way more equity against draws on the turn than on the flop, and this is part of the reason, why solvers often prefer a small bet on the flop (downbetting) but a larger bet on the turn. Sometimes and especially against fishy opponents, we can even overbet jam the turn in short stacked tournament situations. If they then fold their draw, thats fine, and if they call it off with incorrect odds, thats even better. Should mention perhaps, that BB was sitting out in this hand, so it was actually heads up, and this is also why, I completed preflop against a fishy limper playing more than 50% VPIP.

CardsChat Poker Hands Converter
 
M

MakTrue

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"Draws will call anyway" this is something I often hear poker players say when they hit top pair and the board brings a flush/straight draw. They are saying draws will call anyway so it's ok to check and not worry about protecting top pair by betting, don't want to inflate the pot, etc.
I don't really understand this, if you can bet and set a price that makes it wrong for your opponent to call with their draw, don't you want to get your opponent to make a mistake and call? Isn't poker the battle of making less mistakes than your opponent?
Love to hear what others think!


Good day!
I think you are absolutely right.
If the opponent wants to see further streets, then let him pay! You need to pick up with your top pair, especially if your opponent is very loose.
It's another matter when you have only the senior pair, and there are more than 2 people in the distribution, here everything is more complicated and you need to act more carefully.
Good luck at the tables!:)
 
filippfilm

filippfilm

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"Draws will call anyway" this is something I often hear poker players say when they hit top pair and the board brings a flush/straight draw. They are saying draws will call anyway so it's ok to check and not worry about protecting top pair by betting, don't want to inflate the pot, etc.
I don't really understand this, if you can bet and set a price that makes it wrong for your opponent to call with their draw, don't you want to get your opponent to make a mistake and call? Isn't poker the battle of making less mistakes than your opponent?
Love to hear what others think!

The finished hand always has a better chance . But the game does not consist only of this . The best solution is to always check the opponent for the presence of his hand. Of course you need to put it since the aponent will collect the hand only once out of 3 cases:)
 
Alekxandrovi3

Alekxandrovi3

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Draw I check. If they bet and they call a little. When the big one go allin. If I'm close to the prizes, I'll look at the size of my stack.
 
Amanda A

Amanda A

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Jon, great answer, thank you! fundiver, thanks, that's very interesting about the solvers. I've just started getting into solvers. Much thanks to everyone who replied, looks like we are mostly all on the same page.
 
WickedFRoST

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Actually, that is the worst reason to check your top pair.

The only true reasons to check with our single-pair value hands are:

1) we play out of position against a strong opponent and we want to protect our entire checking range by including strong hands.

2) our opponent's range is capped and there are very few hands we can get value from, so we check to induce a bluff from aggressive opponents. (very situational, I would not recommend to do that often)

3) Our hand does not need much protection

4) we have a top pair with a weak kicker, so you want to pot control
 
perrypip

perrypip

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GTO says players should be calling draws. They are part of minimum defense frequency (MDF). However most real world players are not balanced and players shouldn't shouldn't call at MDF. Either way you should be betting.
 
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