Does ITM Matter or only final tables?

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DS3

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That's a great question.

The answer is that neither one is important by itself. Your goal is to maximize ROI (return on investment) which requires playing each hand for the highest EV instead of focusing on goals like cashing, final tabling, or winning.

Sometimes ROI maximization means that you'll make a tight fold to squeak into the money as a mid stack. Sometimes it means you'll play very aggressively near the final table to pressure shorter stacks.

But the focus is on doing what's best for the situation instead of aiming specifically to cash or final table.

This so much.
 
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gryphon3005

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Being ready to change gears and bet sizing are often skills that are overlooked. As the tournament progresses the players start coming and going to your table bringing an ever increasing variety of stack sizes. You need to react to the changing environment. For example, in a re-buy mtt short stacks can catch you off guard with a shove you weren't expecting when the bubble is a long way off. But this player is playing loose because he is prepared to rebuild thru a re-buy if necessary. So always be aware and ready to adapt. When you are in the pot and think you have the nuts you need to think carefully about your bet sizing so you can maximize value. These opportunities don't come as often as you think in an mtt so maximizing your roi also means making sure you seek the most profit in any situation where you have a winning edge.
 
messats

messats

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aim high

when ever playing tourneys i always aim for the final table, this helps in building patience and character, because poker is forever a learning process.
 
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My experience is different as I cannot discuss buy-ins and rebuys but I have cashed quite a few times. My breakdown of largest cashes (within a fair volume of final tables) indicates they constitute about 36% of my total cashes made.

However, I have simply followed my own intuition that it was vital to cash and the more times you cashed the more experience you would gain. With that experience you then start to ladder more frequently and attain the larger cash positions.

If that was my approach already it was underlined by a pro who stated one of the most important habits he had developed as a pro was to cash regularly. He realized that you could never play buy-in catch up over the longer arc with the big scores you might make. What you need to do was recoup your buy-ins regularly and then run deep as well.

Quite often I will run across some info about a pro and will check their Hendon Mob or a similar stat site. In nearly every case the number of cashes they have made blows you away. Try it yourself. As one example, I recently heard about an individual who was a very solid pro with online earnings of US 4,000,000. Yes he had some deep runs and largish paydays but it was his ITM stats that blew me away - still fairly young he had cashed in over 4,000 tourneys.

If you look at such stats you will frequently find pros (the majority) will have an impressive number of tournamentt cashes.

So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that for now as a beginner I should just focus on cashes which will then help me in turn
 
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LEV1ATHAN

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I started thinking the same way, just making the bubble- Now I play more aggressive and I do not make the bubble. But I am learning.


Lol I feel that don't worry we will be at the High Stakes tables together one day
 
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LEV1ATHAN

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Gotta get ITM to have a chance to make final tables. But, playing just to cash will limit profits and eventually cause you to run outta bankroll. Need some final tables, so be aggressive when you are favored.


What's your view on re entering tournaments, around 50bb, do you go for it and try to get back to first or just say well better luck next time
 
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LEV1ATHAN

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It is not recommended to enter tournaments with minimal goals. You think well, the goal is to win the tournament or the final table. I always start with multiple entries and always play aggressively.


Interesting, so are you saying that you're willing to spend 3 or maybe four entries on a single tournament in order to try and go for first( as long as not unfavorable to re enter like super short or tilting)?
 
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FLOP KZ888

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If you play for the final, then the ITM will be 15% + I saw 10% of the ROI dude, but ITM overestimated the norm. He stupidly played on ITM and on the map. At the final, he was stripped in a couple of hands.
 
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So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that for now as a beginner I should just focus on cashes which will then help me in turn

No. I am saying that you cannot dismiss the idea of cashing and just go for the win because you will find wins hard to achieve.

What I am saying (as said by Colin Moshman) is you need a balanced approach. It is easier to get ITM than to reach a final table. In turn it is easier to final table rather than to win a tournament. Common sense prevails.

Experience and intuition will win out. You will know when you are comfortable to reach the cash, so sometimes you can relax and aim to ladder up. Other times you scrape into the cash and however minimal, it is positive reinforcement. Sometimes we all swing for the fences but invariably I would rather min cash that not.
 
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richardpro

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when I enter a tournament I always play to get the best places when I get to the bubble, you have to have a little of everything to have the great expected result
 
Rob Hobson

Rob Hobson

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ITM is better rather than be eliminated. When you get there, the stacks, blinds and antes will 'tell' you how to proceed to go ahead.
 
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fundiver199

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That's a great question.

The answer is that neither one is important by itself. Your goal is to maximize ROI (return on investment) which requires playing each hand for the highest EV instead of focusing on goals like cashing, final tabling, or winning.

Sometimes ROI maximization means that you'll make a tight fold to squeak into the money as a mid stack. Sometimes it means you'll play very aggressively near the final table to pressure shorter stacks.

But the focus is on doing what's best for the situation instead of aiming specifically to cash or final table.

This is exactly the point. In my last session I cashed in 1 out of 5 tournaments, and near the bubble I was a below average stack. Some players were very short and one of them sitting out as well. So for that reason I stalled the action as much, as I could. Took the maximum time whenever the turn got to me.

However I did not stop playing hands. In fact I open jammed 4-5 times during this period, when for instance I picked up KQo in CO with a 12BB stack. This time I picked it up each time, so I actually ended up accumulating a lot of chips during the bubble play. But I still stalled to increase my chance of min-cashing rather than letting someone with 1-2 blinds cash instead of me.

And this time a min-cash was all, I got. After the bubble burst, I had around 18-19BB, and when I opened AK, someone jammed on me. Easy call of course, he flipped over AT, and he hit a T on the river. And the point is, you cant PLAN on "winning the tournament", because at any time a bad beat or cooler can send you out. And then its better to go out with a min-cash than with nothing.
 
balo

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It depends on your strategy and players on your table.
Most good tournament players want to build a stack early in the game so they can play their normal game with a decent stack.
That's why you often see them play aggressive for the first hour and if they bust early they do another re-entry .

I always aim for the cash first, then change strategy depending on my stack so I can focus on a good run.

When you are up against 2000 players you need patience and discipline, and some luck to reach the final table.
 
dimon4ik89

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Like you, I played for many years with the aim of getting into the money. Now I completely change my strategy of the game, expand the range, play more aggressively, and enter the game more often. I definitely agree with you that in order to make money with poker, you need to set yourself the goal of getting to the final table. Personally, I got bored playing only with premium hands. I expanded my range and it became much more interesting to play than before.
 
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1KrazyMofo

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Yes min cashing matters, you should try min cash 30-40% of the time, if you want a higher ROI min cashing is imprtant, chucking with TT on the bubble only to get called by QQ+ / AK
 
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3ccasd

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It often happens that in one tournament you are lucky with cards, and in another you are not. Therefore, it is better to play up the distance and in tournaments where there is more luck to get the maximum profit. In any case, to be profitable, you need to study a lot of the poker strategy of the game, and then the results will be better, and there will be more wins. This way helps me
 
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