Deepstack strategy is actually crap

killing_random

killing_random

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Let's say you win all-in with pair of aces at the start of mtt. Now you're the deep stack along mediums. So you start to play The Deepstack strategy. Slow down a little, fold earlier, play suited connectors more often. You can afford such costs, cos when you finnaly get your nuts, you'll squeeze a maximum EV out of them. Right?
But then blinds rising up and your stack suddenly becomes medium. Which means that I just waste my time and chips by playing The Deepstack strategy when my stack was deep?! Is that so?
 
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fundiver199

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"Slow down" and "fold earlier" certainly dont come to the top of my mind as reasonable adjustments to make as the chipleader. On the countrary you are in a situation, where you can apply pressure to other players, because losing a big pot is much worse for them, than it is for you. Which mean you get to open a few more hands, 3-bet a little more and in general bluff a little more. But the key word is "a little". If you start to go completely out of control, other players will pick up on it, and eventually you will get action in situations, where you do not want it.
 
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tinheads

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If I get deep stacked early in a MTT I generally start trying to use my chipstack to push other players off speculating on middle pairs/suited connectors and so on. I don't see the point in "slowing down" and early folding as you're just giving the competition a free ride at catching up to you, obviously common sense still applies if someone pushes back hard then you still have the option of folding without losing too much of a % of your stack as compared to your tablemates
 
killing_random

killing_random

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Well, I thought again and realizing now, that I just mixed up cash and tournament strategies really badly.
I was thinking that the chip leader doesn't need to rely on risk anymore and can just wait for a monster hand. Slow down, fold earlier would help me extend the time I can afford waiting...
If I would playing cash game! Where your stack won't dries up by itself, relative to blinds, and effective stack is always ready to pay off my long run for a monster hand. That so wrong to play like this in tournaments, that even sitting out a whole game would be better.

Can't believe I was so dumb :rofl:
Thx for replies guys.
 
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eagleaces

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hear me out

Let's say you win all-in with pair of aces at the start of mtt. Now you're the deep stack along mediums. So you start to play The Deepstack strategy. Slow down a little, fold earlier, play suited connectors more often. You can afford such costs, cos when you finnaly get your nuts, you'll squeeze a maximum EV out of them. Right?
But then blinds rising up and your stack suddenly becomes medium. Which means that I just waste my time and chips by playing The Deepstack strategy when my stack was deep?! Is that so?


I am guessing most tourneys you play are below 100$ buy ins. When your playing mid to micro stakes high level strategies dont work. Why would IT? your playing the below average fun gambly players. Next time that happens play basic tight aggro and dont get to fancy. But if your at the higher buy ins where you know there are more experienced players and many pros then thats when high level strategy will work more often. i hope i made my point lol good luck.
 
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fundiver199

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Well, I thought again and realizing now, that I just mixed up cash and tournament strategies really badly.
I was thinking that the chip leader doesn't need to rely on risk anymore and can just wait for a monster hand. Slow down, fold earlier would help me extend the time I can afford waiting...
If I would playing cash game! Where your stack won't dries up by itself, relative to blinds, and effective stack is always ready to pay off my long run for a monster hand. That so wrong to play like this in tournaments, that even sitting out a whole game would be better.

Can't believe I was so dumb :rofl:
Thx for replies guys.

First of all dont feel dumb. The forum is there for asking questions like this and to learn and improve :)

That being said the way, you describe playing, it seems like, you have subconsciously set your goal as surviving as long as possible in the tournament. But this is a false achievement, unless you are playing purely for fun and dont care about profit. If for instance it takes 3 hours to get in the money, it makes no difference, if you bust out after 5 minutes or after 2 hours and 55 minutes. In fact the early bust-out is better, because then you have time to play another tournament, where maybe you are going to cash.

The situation, you describe, with getting an early dubble up, require very few if any adjustments. You now have 200BB, but most of your opponents still have 100BB, so you are still just playing 100BB poker. The early phase of a tournament actually is very much like a cash game, and as in cash games you are not looking to stack off a lot of hands for 100BB. You are looking to play mostly small to medium sized pots and hopefully slowly increase your stack further.
 
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karl coakley

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Changing a winning game because of your chip stack size is a horrible idea. These types of changes are always dictated by the blind/antes.

I regularly have a top 10 stack early because of my style of play. And as quickly as it moves up it grinds itself back down. I rarely pay attention because what matters is the size of my stack compared to the blinds. I'm worried about keeping ahead of the blinds.
 
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eagleaces

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That and

You mean overbeting with premium hands on on every street?



Learn not to get too much in with any hand. 2.2-3.5 pre flop and any where from quarter to half pot C bets One Oppponent. Half pot To 2/3 pot when more. Learn how to play post you got a long way to go to make it out of novice stages. Think where you always bust and then think how you can prevent that next time you will slowly get better over time.
 
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donpiatnik

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Let's say you win all-in with pair of aces at the start of mtt. Now you're the deep stack along mediums. So you start to play The Deepstack strategy. Slow down a little, fold earlier, play suited connectors more often. You can afford such costs, cos when you finnaly get your nuts, you'll squeeze a maximum EV out of them. Right?
But then blinds rising up and your stack suddenly becomes medium. Which means that I just waste my time and chips by playing The Deepstack strategy when my stack was deep?! Is that so?


If you are unsure... you don't necessarily have to change your game just because you have duplicated yourself.
Your existing chips are worth more in the beginning than you could get!
It takes a lot of experience to switch your game well in a normal (serius) tournament. You want to force the mistakes out of your opponents, but in the meantime many cases, you lose a lot from your advantage...

What tournaments are we talking about?????

In a freeroll, no matter what you do ... you can practice, but if your opponents are frivolous, it’s hard to learn.
In a more serious tournament, they will be dismantled before the flop, if you only start playing more cards because you doubled. On the other hand, at the beginning of tournaments, anyone who does not doubled has enough blinds to cause inconvenience.
 
killing_random

killing_random

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I think I made the output from your feedback guys that all of you would like :deal:

The more chips you've got the more "unwavering" you become. When your stack become deep, you're not necessary meant to change your strategy. In fact, now each individual villian has less resources for his mind games or "force" (effective stack accounts for less % of yours) to disturb you from your optimal way of playing your hands. Multiway pot can still screw you up, unless you're have more chips than all of opponents combined.
So, unless you'll got an abnormous bad luck, you basically can't lose untill bubble if you're playing GTO. Being a chipleader is nice thing, it decreases both variance and villian's capability to pressure you.
 
Alekxandrovi3

Alekxandrovi3

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If you are confident that you will be called, this is good. Deep stacks allow you to use the full potential of knowledge and skill. If you can just go for it knowing that you will win, you should do it.
 
4e kogo1

4e kogo1

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personally, I always try to double up as quickly as possible at the initial stage of the tournament, and by the way, I often do it, and in the depth of the stack you play more carefully,because you understand that there will still be a good stack behind you,but moves are inevitable, so luck will accompany the brave)
 
Iddm

Iddm

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Let's say you win all-in with pair of aces at the start of mtt. Now you're the deep stack along mediums. So you start to play The Deepstack strategy. Slow down a little, fold earlier, play suited connectors more often. You can afford such costs, cos when you finnaly get your nuts, you'll squeeze a maximum EV out of them. Right?
But then blinds rising up and your stack suddenly becomes medium. Which means that I just waste my time and chips by playing The Deepstack strategy when my stack was deep?! Is that so?


Well you shoud consider how fast the blind increases and the range of real deep stack, medium and so on...
Also there is difference between strategys in the early, mid and late game considering your stack, blinds increase and range...
 
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