A new trend of donking out of the blinds

[krezip]

hi guys

I just started playing again after being absent for a number of years and I noticed that it has become a new trend to donk out of the blinds after calling a raise.

Is this indeed a new trend and what are the general guidelines for doing this? Basically I see people donking Ace high flops and wet boards that hit a SB/BB calling range - even if they don't hold a hand.

Some people even donk the minimum bet to see what the preflop raiser will do.

Any ideas on the general thoughts behind this? I like it!

 

[Andrew Popov]

I think this is an overly aggressive hand with speculative hands. With the current level of rakeback (it is almost not at pokerstars), this may not be justifiably expensive game.

 

[LuisBoaC]

I've always wondered why the donk bet has such negative connotations. I think it can be used to find out where you stand if you hit a small part of the flop (e.g 2nd pair), especially if the pre-flop raiser c-bets regularly, as the c-bet could mean anything.

 

[krezip]

I've always wondered why the donk bet has such negative connotations. I think it can be used to find out where you stand if you hit a small part of the flop (e.g 2nd pair), especially if the pre-flop raiser c-bets regularly, as the c-bet could mean anything.

for sure it's more cheap than check/raising indeed

 

[japg11]

I have not seen this much.
But I can advise you to study the most common situations: work on your preflop, your cbet on the flop, your barrels, and then in more specific situations, such as donks or 4 bets ..

 

[kkonicke]

I play low-micro stakes and rarely see donk bets as you've described. I don't think it's very common or a new strategy or anything.

 

[damgold]

they bet only for the others to think they hit the flop.

 

[Misaki]

I've always wondered why the donk bet has such negative connotations. I think it can be used to find out where you stand if you hit a small part of the flop (e.g 2nd pair), especially if the pre-flop raiser c-bets regularly, as the c-bet could mean anything.

you call preflop because you believe you can make profit with hands you called. If you start to donkbet when you hit then most of the time you isolate yourself for a better range. You don't win vs villain's bluffs because you cut it by donk betting. It means most of the time people just exploit themselves because they don't win enough with good hands because they fold weak part of villain's range.

 

[gryphon3005]

I agree...I've noticed it happening a little more than in the past. I think it occurs more in lower stakes games where players are sometime happy to keep the bets near the minimum. When the bb or sb donk bets it usually is a small bet that looks like a control bet. The most common response from the raiser seems to be a call in many cases. While the donk bet appears, at first, to be weak, it's the call by the raiser that looks weak. The message is the donk hit the flop and the raiser did not and is probably behind. The bb/sb will then put in a bigger bet on the turn and the raiser folds. When the scenario is different because the raiser responds to the first donk bet with a raise we see the donk fold about 60% of the time. However, the donk often calls and then folds to another raise on the turn. This type of play doesn't make sense and probably reflects the type of players often found in lower stakes.

 

[revizor]

Some replay their hand. Others try to check the min raising, the opponent's range, although this has not been working for a long time, especially at small limits. Third ordinary fish. There is no universal answer.

 

[Poker_Mike]

It is usually a probe bet.

I am not a fan of the min bet as a probe bet.....it screams weakness!

Good luck !

 

[ChickenArise]

Ive seen it at micro tournaments and have implemeted it into my game but i will donk bet larger than min if i think the initial raiser has missed the flop and i have a piece or draw.
The initial raisers response determines how far to go with it.

 

[VIP_TARIFF]

Hey. Try to get back to your old game, and then apply new game techologies. I think you will succeed. Good luck to you at the tables dear friend.

 

[radartodd69]

I don't know about donking out of the blinds but I do defend my bb with a wider range. It's probably a leak in my game so I wouldn't recommend doing this yourself.

 

[LuisBoaC]

you call preflop because you believe you can make profit with hands you called. If you start to donkbet when you hit then most of the time you isolate yourself for a better range. You don't win vs villain's bluffs because you cut it by donk betting. It means most of the time people just exploit themselves because they don't win enough with good hands because they fold weak part of villain's range.

What if villain doesn't bluff (c-bet)? You're happy to just give a free card? And forgive my ignorance could you explain what it means to "isolate yourself for a better range"? Do you mean reducing the range opponents will put you on?
Just want to add the caveat that I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, just want to better understand if and how I'm making mistakes!

 

[krezip]

What if villain doesn't bluff (c-bet)? You're happy to just give a free card? And forgive my ignorance could you explain what it means to "isolate yourself for a better range"? Do you mean reducing the range opponents will put you on?
Just want to add the caveat that I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, just want to better understand if and how I'm making mistakes!

After some more thinking on this I realize there are quite a few ways that this can (and will) be employed:

- if there's a caller behind the preflop raiser then it makes it difficult for the raiser to take an easy decision
- if the flop doesn't hit a preflop raising range, but does hit a sb/bb calling range then it makes it difficult for the preflop raiser to represent anything different than an overpair
- if there are cards out there that look scary (3 cards to a flush or straight) then it would be likely that the raiser would have checked behind - now he's the one facing a tough decision and has to likely put more chips in than intended

And ofcourse there are situations where the donker could just be donking for value, because he actually hit the hand and is worried the raiser will check behind. Some people are also afraid of a bet when they hit something - they immediately worry that the raiser caught a bigger piece of the flop or had a stronger hand to begin with. Now this fear is only there if the raiser chooses to raise the flop.

Anyways some ideas about possible thoughts - I'll play around with this in my game

 

[VIP_TARIFF]

Try to bluff less and look at the game of rivals. To study them, to understand how they think, how they play, what they do. I am sure you will succeed, we all once studied. and you have to re-enter poker.

 

[Misaki]

What if villain doesn't bluff (c-bet)? You're happy to just give a free card? And forgive my ignorance could you explain what it means to "isolate yourself for a better range"? Do you mean reducing the range opponents will put you on?
Just want to add the caveat that I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, just want to better understand if and how I'm making mistakes!

ok I will explain it in simpliest way as I can.

In a vacuum we can assume that most of villains cbets their value range + bluffs. And they check some middle range like 2nd pairs (because they don't have 3 streets of value, and it's better to bet from turn)

if we would donk then villain stays only with his value range. We fold his bluffs combinations. So we don't earn any money from his bluffs. That means when we hit something we play vs his value range and middle range. We still get value on 1 or 2 streets from his middle range (what would happen anyway most of the time if we wouldn't donk) and we build a pot vs his value range where we could be easily behind from his better tp, overpairs. So our donk makes profitable situation to unprofitable situation many times. Because we fold villain's air with our donk. Do you understand now why donks are mostly pretty bad?

And I don't care about giving free cards because It doesn't work like that. If we would start donking when we hit then every decent villain will notice that and we will never make money when we hit something. We have to have strong check calling range and tp, 2nd pairs are great to do that. You can't just donk every time you hit and check/fold when you miss. How do you want earn money in poker then? it's impossible.

of course there are some exceptions like multiways, fish in a spot, some villain which doesn't cbet a lot and his calling range is wider than cbet range then donks are ok. But as general rule is not to donk. Because they are really most of the time for donks.

 

[ChickenArise]

BenCB just put out a video when to donk on the Raise Your Edge channel. Its interesting but also a bit tedious as it goes into the PIO Solver.

Much of the time where one would donk they could opt to check raise instead. I donk when a hand needs a bit of protection but is not strong enough to check raise.

Every other time its a bluff where the flop is clearly better for my range than that of the original raiser.

Others do it to attempt to control the betting but I think it fails more often than not when used in this way.

 

[123cards321]

donk bet

I think donk bet is undervalued greatly. It may seem as a weak move if it comes from a rookie but if you know when to use it you could end up with a lot of chips when someone underestimates your hand and over bets.

 

[0546474]

There are several reasons for the minimum bid. For example, you want to see the next card at a low price. If you don’t bet anything, you risk provoking your opponent to bluff, if you get raised in response to your small bet, you can always fold with minimal losses!

 

[UncleConRon]

My opinion

I like to use a little power bet pre-flop when I have good hole cards to make them think about the situation with donk cards. They usually fold the winner giving you the pot.

 

[TeUnit]

It depends on the villan, if they have a high fold to donk bet, or their fold to 3bet is big, or if they steal a ton from the button - then they are good candidates for this move. The more the villan is out of line the more this move will probably work, because these kind of villans have to give up lots because their range is so weak.