Is this a leak?

beger80

beger80

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In a $10 Tourney about mid way through is it a leak to fold AJ off from the small blind to a 3x UTG open? I am 20BB effective and am covered 5x by the UTG player who I don't have a lot of info on other than a couple loose calls during one round at the table. I don't feel a call is good and raising all in leaves me uncomfortable due to his stack and opening position. Is this bad?
 
D

dudu10grande

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I think bad because his AJ being dominated mostly by villains range be opening under the gun (AQ +) and also for its position against it.
 
IM deusXmachina

IM deusXmachina

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IMO I would like to see a flop, but ultimately probly a good fold. Also how many players from the money? that would be big factor for me whether to fold or call PF.

:2h4:
 
W

WiZZiM

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no need to see a flop with such a reverse implied odds type hand, we never are truly happy with any flop and we tend to win small pots or lose big ones with it.

good fold in general imo
 
J

joe777

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Without enough history on the villain,it was probably a good fold,otherwise

you should reraise all in with 44+.
 
jaimestaples

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Its a close one. Against some you can shove with 20BB, against some you have to fold. I think it depends but it could have been correct!
 
tilan501

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Without enough info on the other player,it might have been the right move, but
I do think i would go for all in.
 
Al Spath

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always trust your gut, if in doubt, "don't." Out of position, middle of event, not in jeopardy with 20 BB's remaining, don't have to defend to a raise or risk your tournament life on that particular hand, you should have more spots to push and win moving forward without losing more chips than your small blind. fold is good IMHO.
 
Al Spath

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from a poker magazine and on online post of an article I penned about 7 years ago.

Oprah Weighs In With Poker Advice

On a recent road trip to New York the XM radio was entirely in my wife’s control by hour three and for some strange reason she selected “Oprah and Friends.”

This new channel was recently launched so that us men, who on occasion are asked (made), to watch the occasional DVR (then VCR) taping of the weekday television show our spouses watch so we can be “in touch” with the connection she has to the subject. (And I thought Dr. Phil was created to mess with us)!

Well, I listened to the ramblings of her girl friend Gail for awhile, and then Oprah talked about her upbringing and the influence of her church and god, and mentioned the following: To her, DOUBT, MEANS “DON’T!”She caught my attention and went on to talk about when she had doubt; it was like a stop sign saying STOP, DON’T PROCEED. There seemed to be a direct correlation between Doubt and Don’t.

When I returned home and had time to think more about her profound declaration, I decided to ask members in several forums what they thought of the statement and what Doubt meant to them. Here are their responses and it is interesting to note the direction (without prompting) that the reader took (Comments from the rail…paraphrased):

* “Doubt for me with poker may mean a few different things. When selecting a type of game to play I may have some reservations or "doubt" about which level to play in relation to what I feel most comfortable with as dictated by my bankroll.”

* “What is the big difference in the pro game compared to some to the play I see in the school? I know its T.V and all and it towards the end and play is much different, but still there is something to be learned from the behavior of the pro game that I have observed.

When a pro is playing a pro, I have noticed it's a lot more player vs. player making plays. They use aggression against each other much more here to define themselves. The game is one of aggression among them in NLHE, and that in turn shows their confidence which removes doubt in their play.”

* “Doubt is a scary word for me. If you have doubt, then it can only be a negative attribute to your game. I like to keep a positive, confident attitude when I play. This means feeling confident in all areas of my game.

Trusting my reads, playing my style, adjusting to the table, and feeling confident in all situations are a must. If any of those things prove to be wrong or not working, then deal with it at the proper time and in the proper way (i.e. Adapt your game to the table dynamic, pick a new table/game if its cash, reflect on what wasn't working). If my reads are off on one hand, then I am not going to doubt them because of one/several negative events.”

* “Doubt may be not having enough faith in our decisions on our play, or even our own skills as poker player (since there are many out there who like to berate and tell us we don’t know how to play or think etc.), so that may create doubt in many players. Doubt is many things to many people, how we handle it in this game is something we all must learn to work with, it can be scary, but I think all us can do it.”

* “Doubt to me is when the math says I should bet on the river with top pair good kicker, but a little voice comes in my head say be careful he may be waiting to check raise me. When I listen to the math I get check-raised, and when I listen to the voice, I find out I had him/her beat.”

* "When in doubt, put it out" Not sure I subscribe to that saying, but it just about sums up what doubt is to me. Being unsure of the cards, the player, the odds, the moon and the stars. Sometimes it's not just the hand itself, it can be that feeling you get that something is just not right. Those are the nights when I get knocked out of every pot with 2nd best hand in every hand I play.”

* “One thing I've learned after recently watching Lucy Rokach playing on Poker Night Live, is that there's no room for doubt whilst playing poker. She has the ability to bet into a pot from any position holding any two cards. The advantage of this is that she's always in control. If someone re-raises, she has the option to get out relatively cheaply, or take her opponents’ whole stack, as it's very difficult to put her on a hand. I've noticed that my own game has become very, very tight and predictable. So I've started to employ her tactics, and won my first sit and go using them.

Playing this way means you have to use your own judgment often, and be disciplined enough to release marginal hands. I felt that I was in control of the tournament for most of the time, although there were a few hair-raising moments. I was instilling fear and doubt into my opponents, which made it easier to play against them.”

As you can see, Doubt does at times mean Don’t! Doubt is something poker players live with, try to control, try to overcome and may still get beat by. Next time you have DOUBT, let me know how it turned out!
 
S

SnowedIn

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hmm, probably have to fold or shove with 20bbs so fine folding but also fine shoving depending on his image.
 
W

WiZZiM

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from a poker magazine and on online post of an article I penned about 7 years ago.

Oprah Weighs In With Poker Advice

On a recent road trip to New York the XM radio was entirely in my wife’s control by hour three and for some strange reason she selected “Oprah and Friends.”

This new channel was recently launched so that us men, who on occasion are asked (made), to watch the occasional DVR (then VCR) taping of the weekday television show our spouses watch so we can be “in touch” with the connection she has to the subject. (And I thought Dr. Phil was created to mess with us)!

Well, I listened to the ramblings of her girl friend Gail for awhile, and then Oprah talked about her upbringing and the influence of her church and god, and mentioned the following: To her, DOUBT, MEANS “DON’T!”She caught my attention and went on to talk about when she had doubt; it was like a stop sign saying STOP, DON’T PROCEED. There seemed to be a direct correlation between Doubt and Don’t.

When I returned home and had time to think more about her profound declaration, I decided to ask members in several forums what they thought of the statement and what Doubt meant to them. Here are their responses and it is interesting to note the direction (without prompting) that the reader took (Comments from the rail…paraphrased):

* “Doubt for me with poker may mean a few different things. When selecting a type of game to play I may have some reservations or "doubt" about which level to play in relation to what I feel most comfortable with as dictated by my bankroll.”

* “What is the big difference in the pro game compared to some to the play I see in the school? I know its T.V and all and it towards the end and play is much different, but still there is something to be learned from the behavior of the pro game that I have observed.

When a pro is playing a pro, I have noticed it's a lot more player vs. player making plays. They use aggression against each other much more here to define themselves. The game is one of aggression among them in NLHE, and that in turn shows their confidence which removes doubt in their play.”

* “Doubt is a scary word for me. If you have doubt, then it can only be a negative attribute to your game. I like to keep a positive, confident attitude when I play. This means feeling confident in all areas of my game.

Trusting my reads, playing my style, adjusting to the table, and feeling confident in all situations are a must. If any of those things prove to be wrong or not working, then deal with it at the proper time and in the proper way (i.e. Adapt your game to the table dynamic, pick a new table/game if its cash, reflect on what wasn't working). If my reads are off on one hand, then I am not going to doubt them because of one/several negative events.”

* “Doubt may be not having enough faith in our decisions on our play, or even our own skills as poker player (since there are many out there who like to berate and tell us we don’t know how to play or think etc.), so that may create doubt in many players. Doubt is many things to many people, how we handle it in this game is something we all must learn to work with, it can be scary, but I think all us can do it.”

* “Doubt to me is when the math says I should bet on the river with top pair good kicker, but a little voice comes in my head say be careful he may be waiting to check raise me. When I listen to the math I get check-raised, and when I listen to the voice, I find out I had him/her beat.”

* "When in doubt, put it out" Not sure I subscribe to that saying, but it just about sums up what doubt is to me. Being unsure of the cards, the player, the odds, the moon and the stars. Sometimes it's not just the hand itself, it can be that feeling you get that something is just not right. Those are the nights when I get knocked out of every pot with 2nd best hand in every hand I play.”

* “One thing I've learned after recently watching Lucy Rokach playing on Poker Night Live, is that there's no room for doubt whilst playing poker. She has the ability to bet into a pot from any position holding any two cards. The advantage of this is that she's always in control. If someone re-raises, she has the option to get out relatively cheaply, or take her opponents’ whole stack, as it's very difficult to put her on a hand. I've noticed that my own game has become very, very tight and predictable. So I've started to employ her tactics, and won my first sit and go using them.

Playing this way means you have to use your own judgment often, and be disciplined enough to release marginal hands. I felt that I was in control of the tournament for most of the time, although there were a few hair-raising moments. I was instilling fear and doubt into my opponents, which made it easier to play against them.”

As you can see, Doubt does at times mean Don’t! Doubt is something poker players live with, try to control, try to overcome and may still get beat by. Next time you have DOUBT, let me know how it turned out!

not bad even though i don't really agree with a few of the views above, especially the one about not betting river from fear of being check raised. if the math says it's a profitable betting spot, we have to take it as the math takes into account the times when we get check-raised, so if we check back a ton we lose value overall, even though we might get lucky on occasion and avoid value owning ourselves once or twice.

but totally agree that doubt doesn't have much of a place at the poker table, if you are ever doubting a play

1. it's usually pretty close.

2. the type of tournament dictates which side of the dice you should fall on, an aggressive type of tournament say a turbo MTT in a large field you should opt to go with an aggressive option if in doubt at the table.

in a game where time isn't as much of an issue, or it's a smaller field, then going with a more defensive/option is better.

3. The worst thing you can ever do when in doubt is resort to the middle ground, which in this case is a call. if you fail to act with conviction, you will no doubt cost yourself equity, which of course costs money. It doesn't actually refer to the spot above which i believe is a clear fold, however if you are ever in a situation in which you think is really close, picking the middle ground is usually not your best course of action.


So while doubt/negativity/being unsure has little place at the poker table in the mind of a good player, it has a ton of room away from the table, doubting, questioning moves while in review is a great idea if you are looking to get better, always doubt that you may be wrong, but then do something about it, learn from it, store it in your poker brain and move on, ready to put aside all doubt and crush whoever is at your poker table.
 
STL FAN

STL FAN

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Having read this thread, your post implied doubt and Al wrote an article just about doubt. I enjoyed Al’s thoughts about doubt because this word is a clear indication of how the brain and poker are closely related; the game being abstract doubt can be in play in every hand.

For example, the person whom started the thread by having doubts whether to play AJo with 20bb. Whether he is unsure of the true hand the person opened with because he may or may not have the ability to put this person on an exact hand pre in this exact situation? Whether or not to play because of not wanting to risk their tournament life based on what the brain has stored in these situations? What information does this player have throughout his or her career that has led them to this point? Is this a regular situation in a MTT tournament this player faces because they have let themselves repeat this situation over and over with very little success going deep in a MTT field?

For the reader, I can feel his or her doubt about something because I have been there myself and others can also relate because early in careers before logging time to get experience people are faced with this situation repeatedly. So, the question concerning doubt, is this person’s ability related to how the brain recalls information for them as this relates to their experience throughout their career?

The brain only recalls information based on the person’s abilities because the information stored can only be used successfully, repeatedly, to the point of unconscious competence only if they mastered what in poker they are learning. Otherwise, doubt is in play about what decision to make with no clear way to understand which decision is right? Different from knowing what to do from having certain aspects of poker mastered in situations where doubt does not play into decision making skills.

For example, if the brain is put into avoidance, avoidance conflict; this means the person has two choices and each choice will have a negative outcome. A real life example, a person facing prison time or paying a fine they cannot afford. In real life a third choice could be run from the situation avoid both. In poker a person who faces a fold then will lose a pot or call and pay off the best hand. This situation happens when the bettor knows the person will only make these two decisions and not shove or re-raise in put the bettor in an uncomfortable situation where doubt can be used against them.

Example 2, approach avoidance conflict, if the brain is put into this situation, when a person has two choices and the result of one choice will have a positive outcome, and the other choice will have a negative outcome. For example, if a person was thinking of starting a business they would be faced with positive and negative aspects. Before actually starting the business, the person would be excited about the prospects of success for the new business and they would encounter (approach) the positive aspects first: the person would attract investors, create interest in their upcoming ideas and it would be a new challenge. However, as the person drew closer to actually launching the business, the negative aspects would become more apparent; the person would acknowledge that it would require much effort, time, and energy from other aspects of the person’s life.


In poker a person is faced with a situation in which they have experience but are unsure of the outcome they might be confident in betting, taking down the pot, and there have been positive results in some situations to consider this action. But as they decide to bet doubt now creeps in because they know from past negative experiences, the person may call, raise, shove, and may not fold and their hand. Their hand now may not be the best based on experience in these situations. These 50/50 situations, situations where the player may face being outplayed by the other player, and the pot may get taken away from them when they are not certain they have the best hand or have been in situations after the hand is played they feel they folded the best hand instead.

These examples are the result of something deeper that goes back to the beginning, doubt? Doubt in the game is there for all to use against our opponents, this is what separates, defines, a players abilities. The brain only remembers poker situations from recent experiences, the results positive and negative because a person, our culture, we view good, bad results of a situation as the trump card. An esthetic result, pleasing to the eyes because a positive result is what was expected; bad results the brain remembers and is reinforced by what is seen to back up the bad results.

In situations of doubt, a 50/50 situation the brain only remembers what was done from the result of what has been seen recently. If a person loses a pot by folding because they were unsure of the proper decision, the brain will inform the person of their past experiences in these situations to fold not play back and look for a better spot or whatever the reason that is specific to the person of question, the result is folding and the other person wins a pot without showdown or wins at showdown as a couple of examples

. This will repeat, mistakes will repeat, situations in poker repeat themselves that have an approach avoidance conflicts. The brain uses seeds of doubt that are recalled in situations that prey on the weak at the table the other predators at the table take advantage of this weakness. Doubt, is put there because of lack of ability, the brain will use us in situations where ability is measured by the understanding of random situations in poker.

Doubt can be erased in the brain by additional learning, understanding, recognizing that will allow the brain to function in spots properly when a person faces two choices, when either choice will have a positive result; this is approach approach conflict, this happens when the brain has information stored that has multiple options from unconscious competence that has had many positive results in stressful situations. Look to put others in spots where one choice might be positive or the other may be negative or both choices will have negative results because of what the person is reading about their opponents at the table from the flow of the game.

When faced with approach avoidance conflict or avoidance avoidance conflict the brain shuts down and it is hard to use conscious thought, or inject logic into a situation because the brain does not have enough positive results either recently or the person does not have the ability because there is no information that is stored in the brain that has been learned to the point of unconscious competence to recall in these spots that would eliminate stress or pressure on the brain to make the proper decision. This happens when the person can only recall doubt, or bad results in these situations. Look to put people in these uncomfortable spots, the spots that the person was in with AJo pre-flop with 20bb will not happen as often or with better abilities may be not at all as their journey progresses; this is solely based on each individual not a guarantee of anything because of the variance differences of each person’s ability.
 
ribaric

ribaric

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In a $10 Tourney about mid way through is it a leak to fold AJ off from the small blind to a 3x UTG open? I am 20BB effective and am covered 5x by the UTG player who I don't have a lot of info on other than a couple loose calls during one round at the table. I don't feel a call is good and raising all in leaves me uncomfortable due to his stack and opening position. Is this bad?
I think you should call with AJ but im you dnt hit an A or a J on the flop than fold.
 
O

OldDog456

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The fold seems like the correct choice on the info you had
 
SPANKYSN

SPANKYSN

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It would be worth a call. Depending on how far away from the money, the UTG player can have a wide range to put extra pressure on other players.
 
beger80

beger80

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Okay how about the same positions but with a 60 BB effective stack? Id weight my action 3bet/fold to 4bet 75% of the time and flat/small ball fold to whiffed flops and villain c bet 25%. Any issues with these types of play?
 
okeedokalee

okeedokalee

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You are behind all pairs, AK and AQ, all hands which can open UTG. what do you hope to be in front of?
 
MasterTur

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Well i just fold in pre-flop. AJ not a great hand in the mid tournament ... you dont have information enought by the villain.
So just fold is good, with 20bb you will can see a lot of hands better and in position.
 
J

JPainTrainSicko

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Having read this thread, your post implied doubt and Al wrote an article just about doubt. I enjoyed Al’s thoughts about doubt because this word is a clear indication of how the brain and poker are closely related; the game being abstract doubt can be in play in every hand.

For example, the person whom started the thread by having doubts whether to play AJo with 20bb. Whether he is unsure of the true hand the person opened with because he may or may not have the ability to put this person on an exact hand pre in this exact situation? Whether or not to play because of not wanting to risk their tournament life based on what the brain has stored in these situations? What information does this player have throughout his or her career that has led them to this point? Is this a regular situation in a MTT tournament this player faces because they have let themselves repeat this situation over and over with very little success going deep in a MTT field?

For the reader, I can feel his or her doubt about something because I have been there myself and others can also relate because early in careers before logging time to get experience people are faced with this situation repeatedly. So, the question concerning doubt, is this person’s ability related to how the brain recalls information for them as this relates to their experience throughout their career?

The brain only recalls information based on the person’s abilities because the information stored can only be used successfully, repeatedly, to the point of unconscious competence only if they mastered what in poker they are learning. Otherwise, doubt is in play about what decision to make with no clear way to understand which decision is right? Different from knowing what to do from having certain aspects of poker mastered in situations where doubt does not play into decision making skills.

For example, if the brain is put into avoidance, avoidance conflict; this means the person has two choices and each choice will have a negative outcome. A real life example, a person facing prison time or paying a fine they cannot afford. In real life a third choice could be run from the situation avoid both. In poker a person who faces a fold then will lose a pot or call and pay off the best hand. This situation happens when the bettor knows the person will only make these two decisions and not shove or re-raise in put the bettor in an uncomfortable situation where doubt can be used against them.

Example 2, approach avoidance conflict, if the brain is put into this situation, when a person has two choices and the result of one choice will have a positive outcome, and the other choice will have a negative outcome. For example, if a person was thinking of starting a business they would be faced with positive and negative aspects. Before actually starting the business, the person would be excited about the prospects of success for the new business and they would encounter (approach) the positive aspects first: the person would attract investors, create interest in their upcoming ideas and it would be a new challenge. However, as the person drew closer to actually launching the business, the negative aspects would become more apparent; the person would acknowledge that it would require much effort, time, and energy from other aspects of the person’s life.


In poker a person is faced with a situation in which they have experience but are unsure of the outcome they might be confident in betting, taking down the pot, and there have been positive results in some situations to consider this action. But as they decide to bet doubt now creeps in because they know from past negative experiences, the person may call, raise, shove, and may not fold and their hand. Their hand now may not be the best based on experience in these situations. These 50/50 situations, situations where the player may face being outplayed by the other player, and the pot may get taken away from them when they are not certain they have the best hand or have been in situations after the hand is played they feel they folded the best hand instead.

These examples are the result of something deeper that goes back to the beginning, doubt? Doubt in the game is there for all to use against our opponents, this is what separates, defines, a players abilities. The brain only remembers poker situations from recent experiences, the results positive and negative because a person, our culture, we view good, bad results of a situation as the trump card. An esthetic result, pleasing to the eyes because a positive result is what was expected; bad results the brain remembers and is reinforced by what is seen to back up the bad results.

In situations of doubt, a 50/50 situation the brain only remembers what was done from the result of what has been seen recently. If a person loses a pot by folding because they were unsure of the proper decision, the brain will inform the person of their past experiences in these situations to fold not play back and look for a better spot or whatever the reason that is specific to the person of question, the result is folding and the other person wins a pot without showdown or wins at showdown as a couple of examples

. This will repeat, mistakes will repeat, situations in poker repeat themselves that have an approach avoidance conflicts. The brain uses seeds of doubt that are recalled in situations that prey on the weak at the table the other predators at the table take advantage of this weakness. Doubt, is put there because of lack of ability, the brain will use us in situations where ability is measured by the understanding of random situations in poker.

Doubt can be erased in the brain by additional learning, understanding, recognizing that will allow the brain to function in spots properly when a person faces two choices, when either choice will have a positive result; this is approach approach conflict, this happens when the brain has information stored that has multiple options from unconscious competence that has had many positive results in stressful situations. Look to put others in spots where one choice might be positive or the other may be negative or both choices will have negative results because of what the person is reading about their opponents at the table from the flow of the game.

When faced with approach avoidance conflict or avoidance avoidance conflict the brain shuts down and it is hard to use conscious thought, or inject logic into a situation because the brain does not have enough positive results either recently or the person does not have the ability because there is no information that is stored in the brain that has been learned to the point of unconscious competence to recall in these spots that would eliminate stress or pressure on the brain to make the proper decision. This happens when the person can only recall doubt, or bad results in these situations. Look to put people in these uncomfortable spots, the spots that the person was in with AJo pre-flop with 20bb will not happen as often or with better abilities may be not at all as their journey progresses; this is solely based on each individual not a guarantee of anything because of the variance differences of each person’s ability.

I very much enjoyed reading this and many of you're other posts. The writing is insightful, thorough and very articulate.
 
J

JPainTrainSicko

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For my answer to the original question posted, this is a situation where my action will vary somewhat. I will mostly be folding from what your description of the villians is. Loose calling and having us covered is a recipe for being at risk with a good but not great hand while we still have a decent stack and room to play. Part of me thinks this is a bit nitty so its close, in game you have to go with your read and instinct and then later question and evaluate if you could have done it different and then test. Good luck
 
makisaa

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Depends how you think it and how you feel it. If your instict say so you did well!
 
Gabinho12345

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I think it's a fold because you are almost never ahead.
 
R

roots10

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I think it's fold, because you'll be sleeping with a wide range of hands, and playing out of position.
 
stevenright

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of course you could gamble and would be pretty good racing against an underpair, but basically is a good fold, nothing to feel bad about, its just the way you play, i will take a lot more chances in the SB and BB and it pays off big time a lot of times for me, and other they just steal one or two blinds, you just put the pros and cons and see what is best for you
 
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