3BB raise enough in your games?

blackknives

blackknives

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I play a variety of privates games (donkhouse) and online, and not sure if anyone else feels the same way but the 3BB never seems to scare people away. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 callers, that's fine, but lets say i have QQ, and i really don't want anyone to limp in with crap, just to hit a draw on the flop. So i raise 3BB, and 5 to 6 of the 10 person table would call.

I find myself going to 4X - 6X instead, to really kick out those without a premium hand or at least a pocket pair.

Thoughts? i didn't look at the math yet but 3BB being standard, has probably been through some calculations making it a value raise? but doesn't seem to work ever for me.
 
Nafor

Nafor

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Welcome to CardsChat blackknives,

It really depends on the game and on your opponents. It is pretty common thought that 3BB raise in online poker is not enough these days - but it depends.

For example, in tournament when bubble is near and people don't have that many chips anymore 3BB raise can be plenty.
 
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gryphon3005

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I assume you are talking about being the 1st to bet? If you're betting 3 BB after one or two players limped into the pot you are pretty well guaranteed that they will call. But if you are first to bet then, you're right, 3 bb won't usually get people to fold. Seems players are still just playing their cards. But, that being said, there are times in a tournament when 3 bb will make a difference...at the bubble and near the end stage where the blinds are now quite large.
 
makisaa

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It depends from each game and from the players you play with. If there is a good pair of cards the 3BB raise is a good bet. But when the game has not a rythm then you must adjust the betting size.
 
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vittopio

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I play a variety of privates games (donkhouse) and online, and not sure if anyone else feels the same way but the 3BB never seems to scare people away. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 callers, that's fine, but lets say i have QQ, and i really don't want anyone to limp in with crap, just to hit a draw on the flop. So i raise 3BB, and 5 to 6 of the 10 person table would call.

I find myself going to 4X - 6X instead, to really kick out those without a premium hand or at least a pocket pair.

Thoughts? i didn't look at the math yet but 3BB being standard, has probably been through some calculations making it a value raise? but doesn't seem to work ever for me.
What is the point of removing players with weak hands? You need to attract them on the contrary! Or how are you going to win?
 
killing_random

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You would prefer to play 6max then. At 9-10max it almost impossible to not play postflop, you always got plenty of ppl who yet to make or already made their choices, without asking your permission of course.

3bb is actually a bit oversized for tornaments, that's a cash game bet size where your chips is straight up money which you can grab and run away with at any moment. That's why you raise 3-3,5bb - to bite off a bigger chunk at ones.
GL:cool:
 
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karl coakley

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I usually see stuff like that in live poker. I could be playing 1/2 (cash) and get 3 calls after raising up to 25.00. Keep in mind there is only 3.oo in the pot.

I do see this less in live tournaments. Usually if you are faced with this in a tournament it is still early.

To me the answer is to open up the range a bit and stay aggressive. I don't feel larger bets are the answer. With larger bets playing tight the risk is one of those guys donking you out of your stack in 1 hand. I would open up the range, play more smaller pots, and bet more post flop.
 
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alge0815

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I think it really depends. When a lot players are in the hand than you have to raise higher. There are more people who hit something and believe what they have got is good enough or can get something like flush or straight. So just raise if you have a good hand and then raise a bit higher than with just a few people in the hand.
 
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suehtam05

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You already know it doesn't work in your games, adapt it. If you have a premium hand bet raise more. When you play micro mtt like i do a 3bb raise won't scare anyone away
 
blackknives

blackknives

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What is the point of removing players with weak hands? You need to attract them on the contrary! Or how are you going to win?


I guess it's to ensure i'm playing only against a smaller range, and less players.
Say if i have AK, it's solid, but until you hit the flop who knows.
If i 3BB, and 6 other players call, my hand in most cases is now much weaker, with other people pairing up, different types of draws.

If i can narrow it down, i would, but the 3BB standard got me wondering, if 4x 5x is too much in terms of the math, bet vs reward
 
blackknives

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You already know it doesn't work in your games, adapt it. If you have a premium hand bet raise more. When you play micro mtt like i do a 3bb raise won't scare anyone away


Yeah i know for sure it doesnt work, but wondering from a bet/reward, math etc, if 3BB is some sweet spot, and say what is still considered fair before i'm putting in way too much where the reward doesn't make sense anymore
 
blackknives

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If you play low stacks, this is normal. In freerolls this is even more normal.
i typically do private $100 weekly games with friends.
In the online games, at what blinds do you start seeing more reasonable play, versus "i'll call anything".

Thanks!
 
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LFC_yllnwa

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What is the stage of the tournament? what is the size and composition of the table? These are very important things, that to say about which raise size is best suited. You should understand that it is very difficult to do 3bet at the initial stage of the tournament and expel all the bad players. But in the middle or late stage, 3bet will be enough to act aggressively, show hand strength, and correctly assess the situation at the table. Sometimes 4 or 5BB doesn't help you get rid of problems on the flop for you when you have a very good hand. It is necessary to carefully study the table, so that you do not make a mistake when you make a big preflop bet, because it is very difficult to get out of the game u a big pot...

Do not think only about one version of the game, be more flexible and adapt to the game of your opponents. I've talked to a lot of players who make big bets on the preflop, but then don't know how to play and lose big pots.. I will repeat to you, carefully study your opponent and do not forget that you have a fold button, even if you have a KK ;)
 
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matiascecci1990

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It´s depend the stage of the game, if the tournament rencently start, is not enought.
 
rock0001

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in middle and late stages 3 bb ls more than enough to make most players fold their hands. the exception is when there are limpers in the hand. In that case you should raise at least 1bb more for every
limper in the hand. in early stages 4 to 5 or even 6bb in loose tables can be a good decision when you have a very strong preflop hand, however in tight tables 2.5 - 3 or maybe 4bb should be enough to scare away most players.
 
Phoenix Wright

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It depends on lots of factors (as with many things in poker it seems).

Some variables might include, but by no means limited to:

-Stack sizes
-Your table image
-Opponent(s) table image
-If the game is online or live poker (live poker typically requires a bigger raise size to discourage callers - especially at lower levels of play because people tend to go to casinos to gamble - not to fold disciplined all day long)
-Blind/antes structure
-Game type (MTT, Sit n Go, Cash Game etc.)

Even table image can dictate raise sizing and how much "credit" players give. A maniac can raise 5x the Big Blind and still get called often, but watch in that same game how everyone insta-folds to a nit min-raise :D

With all of this said, 3x is probably not getting as much credit as it used to. Many players are coming in much bigger (like 3.5x or even 4x open-raises) and some players are coming in smaller (like 2.5x) with the idea of seeing more flops against players they think they can outplay post-flop. Everyone seems to choose different raise sizes for different reasons.

Once you find what works for you, then I'd stick with it while being aware of its pros and cons. Especially if starting out, I'd default to raising bigger than smaller. At least you are going to discourage more callers with a bigger raise and if someone wants to fight you for that pot, then at least you made them pay preflop.
 
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donpiatnik

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I play a variety of privates games (donkhouse) and online, and not sure if anyone else feels the same way but the 3BB never seems to scare people away. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 callers, that's fine, but lets say i have QQ, and i really don't want anyone to limp in with crap, just to hit a draw on the flop. So i raise 3BB, and 5 to 6 of the 10 person table would call.

I find myself going to 4X - 6X instead, to really kick out those without a premium hand or at least a pocket pair.

Thoughts? i didn't look at the math yet but 3BB being standard, has probably been through some calculations making it a value raise? but doesn't seem to work ever for me.


It always depends on the current tournament and table.If many give, the rate of the call must be raised, even with the largest cards. (raise to so many big blinds that you only have 1-2 calls. if it's 6 then 6bb if more than more...!)But I would add this only happens in freerolls and very small buy-in tournaments. (and most at the beginning of competitions)In a normal tournament, a 3bb 1st raise is also ridiculous. There mostly 2bb-2.2bb is the usual, but very maximum 2.5 bb.
 
NickeLine22

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I personally use a raise to 2.18 bb (3.5 on the blind). In deep stacks, the main thing is to play correctly postflop. Big raises will tell your opponents that your hand is good. I think the optimal openraise is 2-3 bb.
P.S. I am MTT-player.
 
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zwbb

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Why do we 3-bet in poker? If you think about such a simple question, then we have two global reasons: We want to get called. With premium hands like AA, we definitely want to push the pot as much as possible and ideally try to beat our opponent in the stack. We want to get our opponent to fold. When we assume that we have a good chance of pushing our opponent out of the pot and taking an existing pot here and now, we 3-bet bluff. As a result, when a situation arises that meets one of these two conditions, we can potentially make a 3-bet.
 
adoadoado76

adoadoado76

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:)

so in my opinion 3bb 5bb lifting depends on which part of the tournament you are in and how strong the tournament is. if you play some small tournaments there is a great chance that a lot of players follow you on the table. but that's up to the moment and your position when you go with a big lift. I'm not a good player for good advice either. Good luck:)
 
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eetenor

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I play a variety of privates games (donkhouse) and online, and not sure if anyone else feels the same way but the 3BB never seems to scare people away. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 callers, that's fine, but lets say i have QQ, and i really don't want anyone to limp in with crap, just to hit a draw on the flop. So i raise 3BB, and 5 to 6 of the 10 person table would call.

I find myself going to 4X - 6X instead, to really kick out those without a premium hand or at least a pocket pair.

Thoughts? i didn't look at the math yet but 3BB being standard, has probably been through some calculations making it a value raise? but doesn't seem to work ever for me.


Thank you for posting.

There are 2 basic strategies to use in this situation. As our Villains are playing an exploitable style we exploit them.

1 We raise enough to get the job done. So If we have to raise 20x 30x 40x to get 1 caller which is optimal for us that is what we do. We do not need to fear not getting paid so we can bomb away. You have to experiment with sizing based on the players.

AA KK QQ are the only hands we would open for 20x etc. We limp AA KK sometimes to balance our JJ-22 limp for set mines. We then limp re-raise bomb the AA KK as we know we are getting called. You can even limp shove these hands against some players.

2 We focus on post flop play so when we are raising 3x-5x we raise a wide not tight range of hands and play fit or fold on the flop.

Range example:

AA-QQ:AKs-A2s :KQs-K9s: QJs-Q8s: etc 98s-87s 76s You may notice this range includes hands that can make the nuts 2 ways, we want that extra equity when we play in games like these.

We are looking to go past the flop with hands that make the nuts multiway. One pair is seldom that hand so even with an over pair to the board we can check call or check fold board texture dependent. QQ will often be a check fold on many boards if your villains get aggro behind you. You will of course fold the best hand sometimes but you are getting 6-1 on your money all the time so no need to try to extract equity every hand.

We are playing to make the nuts so we have to be careful with lower flush hands- often the best flops for 98s is pair plus draw plus backdoor flush not front door flush.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
Vallet

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In my opinion, the size of bets should be adjusted depending on the players at the table. If a large number of players often end up on the flop, then it makes sense to raise high. If the table is very tight, then you will only win the blinds until you face KK vs AA, and someone goes broke.
 
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