3 different situations of the opponent's action with stacks of 5-12BB.

[BelFish]

Is there a big difference between 3 spots for push/fold stacks (5-12BB)?

I mean our range with which we put all our chips into the pot in these non-first-in spots.

1.) Villain limps in front of us.

2.) Villain min-raises in front of us.

3.) The opponent in front of us goes all-in.

Won't our ranges be about the same with such small stacks? Maybe with stacks of 9-12bb there will be some noticeable difference, and with stacks of 5-8bb there will be almost no difference?

 

[0546474]

I will not describe all situations, as there can be a lot of them, but for me there is definitely a difference !!!

 

[BelFish]

I will not describe all situations, as there can be a lot of them, but for me there is definitely a difference !!!

Well, here's an example for you:

You are sitting in the CO position with a stack of 5BB, the opponent who comes into play in front of you is on MP.

Write down how you would play 77 or AJ against a mini-raise, against a limp, and against an all-in.

P.S. Consider that the game is against an unknown opponent and the bubble is still far away.

 

[IADaveMark]

One of the first considerations here is situational. Are there ICM considerations or not? i.e. are we close to the bubble or a big pay jump? Assuming no...

Over-shoving is often something to be a bit wary of unless you have a really powerful hand. (Over-shove is shoving over the top of an opening raiser.) While with the stack size you mentioned, the whole, "Any Ace, any pair" rule is well in play, doing it against someone who was comfortable enough to raise is asking for trouble. Why would they be opening? For example, if someone opens with AT, you are in bad shape if you shove with your A3.

Similar to an over-shove, a re-shove is a dangerous idea as well. At that point, you again have to ask yourself, "what would they do this with?" and decide if you could possibly be ahead or not.

On the other hand, shoving over a limper gives you a little more margin. Someone limps when they aren't completely sold on their hand. Those people are going to be much more likely to fold to an over-shove.

Your sub-splitting of the stacks 5-8 and 9-12 really only comes into play when ICM stuff is in effect. How close are you to the bubble/pay jump? Are there shorter (or similar) stacks than you that could bust out before you? How close are you to the BB coming around? Do you need to buy another orbit somehow?

As with many of these questions, the answer is, "it's complicated."

 

[0546474]

Well, here's an example for you:

You are sitting in the CO position with a stack of 5BB, the opponent who comes into play in front of you is on MP.

Write down how you would play 77 or AJ against a mini-raise, against a limp, and against an all-in.

P.S. Consider that the game is against an unknown opponent and the bubble is still far away.

77 and AJ against a mini-raise and a limp the game is the same it's all-in against an all-in AJ definitely call and with 77 I will think but most likely I will also call))) I meant that, for example, with J9s or Q10s I will play everything only if none of the players before me did anything !!! Ax from early position I will fold and from late and possibly middle position with (s ) hands I will play all-in !!! You didn't write at how many BBs the opponent goes all-in, this also needs to be taken into account !!! In general, I repeat that the situation can be very many and different !!!

 

[BelFish]

As with many of these questions, the answer is, "it's complicated."

Well, actually, i mentioned that we are considering a case far from the bubble. And that the opponent is an unknown player, that is, we believe that, on average, not very loose, but not a TAG either. Also both players on the blinds in sit-out mode. I think that this is an unambiguous situation so that decisions can be made in all 3 cases, because there is simply no other information.

Well, we can separately consider the case of a direct player who shows strength with strong hands, and limps with weak ones. You can fold some fairly strong hands against his minraise and all-in.

I'm wondering what ranges you would choose for all-in in these 2 examples for each of the 3 possible cases with different stack sizes.

It would be possible to make a table in Excel in whose columns the stack size is from 5BB to 12BB in 2BB increments (4 columns are obtained: 5-6, 7-8, 9-10 and 11-12BB). And in the lines - 3 indicated situations (limp, mini-raise and all-in) for 2 indicated types of players (6 lines). And offhand, without any calculations in the program, purely from experience, to enter approximate ranges with which you would go all-in...

And you can also add 3 additional lines for the case when the players in the blinds are active, and not in sit-out mode.

An answer in the form of a screenshot of such a quickly filled table with approximate spectra would be much more interesting than lengthy reasoning about the fact that a bunch of different situations are possible.

 

[BelFish]

Oops, i confused the topic with another one, where there was a limper, and SB and BB in sit-out mode ))

But still, it would be possible to make a table here, for example, for the case when we are on BU or CO against a player on MP.

And even cooler would be 10 such tables: we are on MP vs EP, we are on LP (BU and CO) vs EP, we are on SB vs EP, we are on BB vs EP, we are on LP vs MP, we are on SB vs MP, we are on BB vs MP, we are on SB vs LP, we are on BB vs LP, and we are on BB vs SB.



This would be an almost exhaustive chart for all cases of push/fold for a game against one opponent entered the game!

 

[BelFish]

Here, for example, in this chart, all 3 situations of the player's actions in front of us are considered equivalent with these stacks. It can be seen that there is some kind of averaging that works more or less well in all possible cases.

 

[BelFish]

It is clear that in the case of pushing an opponent with a larger stack than ours, if after him there are also opponents with large stacks, that he pushes much tighter. But, nevertheless, with our very small stack, the difference exactly for us may not be so big between all 3 spots...

And if there is a difference, then it would be possible to introduce some kind of rule of thumb for the numbers in the chart. For example, for the case of a push from an opponent, when there is a large stack behind him, it would be possible to subtract 1-2BB in the chart for our stack with which you can close the push (2BB for stacks of 8-12BB and 1BB for stacks less than 8BB). And against minraises and limps, to act according to the numbers that are on the chart...

 

[ninocabral]

In my opinion, it will depend on the position at the table, there is a big difference if it's utg that's all-in or if it's the button all-in and you're on the big, now if I'm the first at the table to speak my range of hands increases as I get closer to the button

 

[Tigroslav]

ok with 5 BB's the answer is the same for all 3 actions I commit all my chips in to the pot right then and there

for 12 BB's stacks it would be much different
AJo would be a fold to all 3 actions
77 would be a call to a limp and minraise and fold to shove.

 

[BelFish]

In my opinion, it will depend on the position at the table, there is a big difference if it's utg that's all-in or if it's the button all-in and you're on the big, now if I'm the first at the table to speak my range of hands increases as I get closer to the button

We compare all 3 situations for the same positions of the opponents...

 

[fundiver199]

Yes but more so with 5BB than 12BB. It all depends on, if we think, we have fold equity or not. And also what we think about their range. Typically limpers are weaker players with wider ranges but not always. A HUD is very usefull here, and if the limper have stats like 11/3 (mouse or tight-passive), then they probably have something very good, when they enter the pot, even just as a limp. So it might be better to fold our A4s rather than jam and get snapped off by AQ or 99.

If on the other hand the limper have stats like 22/19 (LAG) then we need to ask ourselfes, why they suddenly limp now, when they normally always raise first in? And even more why they are doing it with a stack, where they should open jam and go for maximum fold equity? A LAG has studied poker strategy, so they are probably not trying to see a cheap flop with 44 and setmine for their 9BB. Much more likely they are making a unbalanced "trap" by limping AA or KK, and there is no reason, why we should blindly walk into that trap.

But at the other end of the spectrum if the limper have stats like 72/19, then we can almost ignore them and jam the same range, as if it had folded to us, especially in the upper end of that 5-12BB interval. A 72/19 is going to have a lot of limp-folds, and even when they call us, its often with some kind of junky hand, we are doing totally fine against.

 

[BelFish]

Thank you! Good advices! Notes and statistics are very important!

But i want for begining to start with a simplified but effective strategy for playing against average unknown players.
Charts...

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Here's something else i thought. This charts from PokerStrategy, after all, are too tight. So against limpers we can probably add 1BB into the effective stack for shoving instead of minus it away. Against a minraise, - to act the same as in the charts. And against an all-in with stacks from 9BB to 13BB, to decrease on 2BB our stack for call a push, and with a stack of 8BB or less, - decrease on 1BB.

PS. Those who have extensive experience with programs like icmizer could, from their own experience, suggest the best "calibration" in their opinion, if you use this method, and not create separate charts...

Maybe for calls of all-ins from opponents, it would be more optimal to reduce the effective stack for calling not by 2 (or 1) BB, but for example by 3 (or 2) BB.

What do you think is this a good rules or can someone suggest a better rules?