$2.20 pko river decision..?

Tracid

Tracid

Squirrel Tiger
Community Guide
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
6,334
Awards
6
Quirky hand today, interested on your thoughts if you were faced with this...


pokerstars, $1.96 + $0.24 - Hold'em No Limit - 35/70 (11 ante) - 9 players

Schaffei (UTG): 2,617 (37 bb)
DonPenPen (UTG+1): 10,805 (154 bb)
Volodya1114 (MP): 6,166 (88 bb)
Tr4cid (MP+1): 6,594 (94 bb)
Orchanin90 (LP): 1,798 (26 bb)
Tedinho93 (CO): 5,687 (81 bb)
marestail (BU): 2,127 (30 bb)
schreibi1982 (SB): 11,041 (158 bb)
zuiveraar (BB): 2,883 (41 bb)

Pre-Flop: (204) Hero (Tr4cid) is MP+1 with 5 A
3 players fold, Tr4cid (MP+1) raises to 175, 3 players fold, schreibi1982 (SB) calls 140, 1 fold

Flop: (519) 6 3 5 (2 players)
schreibi1982 (SB) bets 210, Tr4cid (MP+1) calls 210

Turn: (939) Q (2 players)
schreibi1982 (SB) bets 420, Tr4cid (MP+1) raises to 1,260, schreibi1982 (SB) calls 840

River: (3,459) T (2 players)
schreibi1982 (SB) bets 9,385 (all-in)

It's all in to call, what do you do? :eek:
 
foran

foran

Rock Star
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Total posts
393
Awards
1
fold. Why raise on the turn ?, it was better to raise on the flop, call to control the pot and the on turn you lose control of the pot.
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

Legend
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Total posts
1,324
A5o is a loose open here this deep for sure - A8o if the bottom of your offsuit Ax you should be opening. Now when the small blind flats their range SHOULD mainly consist of alot of paint and pocket pair holdings with some suited connectors like 78s, 89s and 9Ts in there as well.

Anyhow, it's pretty strange they are donking this low card flop, buuuuut, that being said this board in theory shouldn't hit your LJ opening range very often, so a thinking player could note this and either donk this flop or check-raise a cbet on this flop turning all their broadway holdings into bluffs and such out of the gate.

Moving on, the donk bet is weird but we do have a pair and cannot fold for that price so the call is fine. The Q on the turn should be much better for our range than our villans range - so for them to donk twice is just blind ambition or pretty nutted (like a set or an overpair to the board before the Q). So I think if we are going to continue here we do so with just a call - our raising turn here is stranger than our villans donk bets. Why are we raising? Are you raising for value or raising to turn your hand into a bluff? If we are bluffing - what better hands are we getting to fold? I see people blindly raising all the time and they don't even know why they are doing it other than trying to force a fold when they aren't even sure what they are targeting! Just makes no sense...is villan ever folding hands like 77-TT here? Maybe, but not too often I don't think. Are they ever folding a set? Nooooo. If they donked the low board with a hand like QJ or KQ, are they folding their top pair?? Nooooo - so our turn raise just doesn't make much sense and doesn't accomplish anything except bloating the pot when we do it. To make matters worse, our villan makes the call! Now we are practically dead and have wasted more than enough chips to come to that conclusion.

So after the disaster that is the turn - villan shoves river for 3x pot - we are done, snap fold, nothing to consider here, move on. After villan calls the turn and shoves this river card, it's waaaaay too many chips to be considering the call with 4th pair. We lose to way too much, played the hand weirdly ourselves and stacking off this deep this light would be a nightmare. If he is bluffing us - so what, we can get him in a better spot later.

In summary - your open is loose - we flop a marginal made hand and are trying to get to showdown cheaply. Raising turn is a very bad idea and we paid for it. Check-call turn and I would probably fold to a large third bet on the river. Again, we don't need this spot in our lives, many better ones to be had.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
10,276
Awards
1
Preflop
In my opinion we need to be in CO or BTN to open A5o, so this is two positions to early.

Flop
Dont think there is much to do here other than call and see a turn. Our hand is not strong enough for a raise, but we also cant just fold to random donk bets, when we connect with the board.

Turn
I guess, calling again would be ok given their sizing, but personally I lean towards a fold. I think, when they bet again, its quite unlikely, we have the best hand, and even if we improve, we never know, where we are, since they could have flopped a set or straight or end up with a better two pair than ours. I guess, you are raising to turn your hand into a bluff, and this is not the kind of hand, I want to use for that purpose. It was garbage preflop, and its still garbage now.

River
When someone donk jam after getting raised, its a very strong play, so no need to consider hero calling with a random pair, that have no relevant blockers.
 
Tracid

Tracid

Squirrel Tiger
Community Guide
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
6,334
Awards
6
Lots of very valid and prudent observations, thank you all kindly for offering your opinions.

Did mention earlier it was a quirky one.. :)

Here's what happened if you're interested:

Replay this hand on CardsChat
 
MAGICUZ

MAGICUZ

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 6, 2018
Total posts
2,592
Awards
1
Very strange game for two players:DApparently you didn't want to play in this tournament, your opponent too:DIn this distribution, I did not see any logic not from you not from him.Apparently he wanted to be eliminated from the tournament more than you
 
Tracid

Tracid

Squirrel Tiger
Community Guide
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
6,334
Awards
6
Very strange game for two players:DApparently you didn't want to play in this tournament, your opponent too:DIn this distribution, I did not see any logic not from you not from him.Apparently he wanted to be eliminated from the tournament more than you
Haha, it was a weird one for sure!

The whole time I was tanking the river I was sure I was going to fold but the more I thought about their line the more it just didn't add up to me..

Of course I had the benefit of being at the table and having observed how the players were playing, which helps, but I think what got me over the line to call in the end was 'why shove?'..

It just didn't make sense that any hands which would be jamming for value here would have taken the line they had played through the previous streets.

Thus the call and it instantly became one of my favourite heroes to date.

Somewhat unorthodox, granted, but my read was spot on.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day (unless it is digital)... :wink: :laugh:
 
WickedFRoST

WickedFRoST

Rock Star
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
Total posts
164
Awards
1
Easy fold, not even close.

In fact, I totally agree with previous replies, it's a very loose open pre-flop, and raise on the turn makes no sense at all. I think, the way played, you should have just folded on the turn, as you have way more other stronger hands to continue with.
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

Legend
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Total posts
1,324
Lots of very valid and prudent observations, thank you all kindly for offering your opinions.

Did mention earlier it was a quirky one.. :)

Here's what happened if you're interested:

Replay this hand on CardsChat



Its fine to pat ourselves on the back once in a while...but don't get caught up in this too much. This will build bad habits and you will go broke muuuuch more often than you will win here. It's a PKO and we can't even win a bounty calling down our villan this light. Again, just way better spots to pickup chips throughout the course of a tournament than this one.

Edit:: In response to a response if yours earlier when you asked yourself why is the villan shoving river? Well obviously this villan has no idea, they just went for the hail Mary bluff - but someone who flopped a set or better is saying to themselves "if this guy has AA or KK he's neeeveeeeer folding and I got him!!" - overbet the river, target the uppermost value heavy portion of your range, and get you to stack off. That's one easy perception of why someone could overbet jam for value. You will get max value from juuust a few hands, and heaping tons of folds
 
Last edited:
mervin88

mervin88

Visionary
Joined
Apr 3, 2018
Total posts
787
Awards
8
nice hero call

why play a big pot early w A5o

why re-raise on the turn without any back up draw

nice hero call, high five good job

but will never risk hero calling early in the game

easy fold pre

or call flop, fold turn, move on basic play early stages
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
10,276
Awards
1
Lots of very valid and prudent observations, thank you all kindly for offering your opinions.

Did mention earlier it was a quirky one.. :)

Here's what happened if you're interested:

Replay this hand on CardsChat

Obviously this is a hand, where both players were quite a bit out of line. Starting with the Villain he is clearly a bit of a play machine. These are not the most common player type in the micros, but there are some. Its someone, who understand poker theory reasonably well, but they are way to concerned with making fancy play, and therefore they are at the end of the day a type of recreational player. The way, he played this hand, is not, how we beat micro and low stakes games online.

That being said his play here is probably also not as random and "crazy", as it might seem to some. On the flop he probably understand, that a mid position raiser has missed this board most of the time, and therefore he goes for the donk bet with just some random overcards. The turn brings a Q, which is a decent barrel card for him, because its an overcard to many of your one pair hands like 77-JJ.

When he get raised, the hand goes totally of the rails though, because now its absolutely time for him to abandon his project. Instead he makes the call, probably because he has a big club in his hand, and he is already planning to donk jam, if another club comes on the river having a blocker to the flush. It probably also matter here, that he has you covered, so he can put your tournament life at risk. Again this is definitely not a good play, but its also not completely random, as it might seem.

If you had a read on this guy from notes, HUD-data or previous hands at the table, that obviously makes your play a bit better. I would still have taken a different line though. On the flop, if this guy is such a play machine, that donk bet looks very bluffy, and I actually like a raise for value and protection. And also to send him a message, that he is not just going to randomly donk into all low boards after defending against me. That is not, how this session is going to play out.

On the turn though you lost a decent chunk of equity against his range, so to me it makes no sense to raise now. If he is donking KJ, he is obviously also donking hands like KQ or QJ, so this card will sometimes have hit him. This is something, we always need to be aware off, when we are bluff catching. Even if our read is correct, and the opponent was actually bluffing, when they began their aggression, sometimes they will get their later, and now we are paying them off.

If he is such a play machine, our hand is definitely good enough to call again on the turn, but raising is to thin now. Instead you should just have called, and then probably also called, if he bombed a scary river like this. The difference is, he will likely not put you all in, so when he did get there, you still survive in the tournament. Or if he still move all-in, you can just fold knowing, that if he bluffed you, he gave himself an absolutly awfull risk-reward.
 
Tracid

Tracid

Squirrel Tiger
Community Guide
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
6,334
Awards
6
Its fine to pat ourselves on the back once in a while...but don't get caught up in this too much. This will build bad habits and you will go broke muuuuch more often than you will win here. It's a PKO and we can't even win a bounty calling down our villan this light. Again, just way better spots to pickup chips throughout the course of a tournament than this one.

Edit:: In response to a response if yours earlier when you asked yourself why is the villan shoving river? Well obviously this villan has no idea, they just went for the hail Mary bluff - but someone who flopped a set or better is saying to themselves "if this guy has AA or KK he's neeeveeeeer folding and I got him!!" - overbet the river, target the uppermost value heavy portion of your range, and get you to stack off. That's one easy perception of why someone could overbet jam for value. You will get max value from juuust a few hands, and heaping tons of folds
You really think a set or straight jams the river when the flush draw completes after I've re-raised the turn tho? :)

nice hero call

why play a big pot early w A5o

why re-raise on the turn without any back up draw

nice hero call, high five good job

but will never risk hero calling early in the game

easy fold pre

or call flop, fold turn, move on basic play early stages
Yeah, this is far and away from standard play, as mentioned at the beginning, it's an unusual hand.

Making an easy fold pre might have been much more GTO, but wouldn't have made quite as good of a thread, would it? :biggrin:

Obviously this is a hand, where both players were quite a bit out of line. Starting with the Villain he is clearly a bit of a play machine. These are not the most common player type in the micros, but there are some. Its someone, who understand poker theory reasonably well, but they are way to concerned with making fancy play, and therefore they are at the end of the day a type of recreational player. The way, he played this hand, is not, how we beat micro and low stakes games online.

That being said his play here is probably also not as random and "crazy", as it might seem to some. On the flop he probably understand, that a mid position raiser has missed this board most of the time, and therefore he goes for the donk bet with just some random overcards. The turn brings a Q, which is a decent barrel card for him, because its an overcard to many of your one pair hands like 77-JJ.

When he get raised, the hand goes totally of the rails though, because now its absolutely time for him to abandon his project. Instead he makes the call, probably because he has a big club in his hand, and he is already planning to donk jam, if another club comes on the river having a blocker to the flush. It probably also matter here, that he has you covered, so he can put your tournament life at risk. Again this is definitely not a good play, but its also not completely random, as it might seem.

If you had a read on this guy from notes, HUD-data or previous hands at the table, that obviously makes your play a bit better. I would still have taken a different line though. On the flop, if this guy is such a play machine, that donk bet looks very bluffy, and I actually like a raise for value and protection. And also to send him a message, that he is not just going to randomly donk into all low boards after defending against me. That is not, how this session is going to play out.

On the turn though you lost a decent chunk of equity against his range, so to me it makes no sense to raise now. If he is donking KJ, he is obviously also donking hands like KQ or QJ, so this card will sometimes have hit him. This is something, we always need to be aware off, when we are bluff catching. Even if our read is correct, and the opponent was actually bluffing, when they began their aggression, sometimes they will get their later, and now we are paying them off.

If he is such a play machine, our hand is definitely good enough to call again on the turn, but raising is to thin now. Instead you should just have called, and then probably also called, if he bombed a scary river like this. The difference is, he will likely not put you all in, so when he did get there, you still survive in the tournament. Or if he still move all-in, you can just fold knowing, that if he bluffed you, he gave himself an absolutly awfull risk-reward.
Perceptive as ever fun!


Ultimately it played out as a kind of protracted leveling war.

Off topic, have you played in the CC League fundiver?
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

Legend
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Total posts
1,324
You really think a set or straight jams the river when the flush draw completes after I've re-raised the turn tho? :)

What hands are you raising turn with on this board texture??


Its a backdoor flushdraw, so yeah - I would raise you. Your turn raise makes no sense unless you yourself flopped a set and slow played, but its way more likely you floated flop and hit the Q or are dragging with KK or AA trying to pot control flop and now get more value out of someone. Picking up the flush draw on the turn you will likely just call since you are getting the right price to do so and there's no point in raising since you could get re-raised and blown off your newly turned equity.

Anyhow, turn raises are generally one of two things - very nutted, or just bs. And to be honest, most of the time it's a very nutted hand - just sooooo hard for you to have such a strong hand on this board texture unless it were 66 or QQ. If I had flopped a set and you happened to have a bigger one, its just a cooler and not much I can do. So again - you are missing the bigger picture here and it's just a board texture that really shouldn't do much for your range here and so the turn raise is very suspect.

If you ARE raising your backdoor flush draws on turn cards - then good for you I suppose because at least when you are raising turns you are balanced between nothing and strong hands. I just know the deeper stacked we are we want to realize our equity more in these situations. If you do pull that trigger to raise turns as a bluff, you better be willing to continue betting rivers even when you brick out to sell that raise or it will cost you more than it will make you. This villan took that away from you.
 
Tracid

Tracid

Squirrel Tiger
Community Guide
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
6,334
Awards
6
:flybye:

That's me setting off looking for the 'bigger picture'... :laugh:

For the fiftieth time, it was a peculiar hand.

Posted for comedy value, not as a proposed entry into an upcoming MTT strategy playbook... :flute:

:lollypop:
 
Tracid

Tracid

Squirrel Tiger
Community Guide
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
6,334
Awards
6
What hands are you raising turn with on this board texture??


Its a backdoor flushdraw, so yeah - I would raise you. Your turn raise makes no sense unless you yourself flopped a set and slow played, but its way more likely you floated flop and hit the Q or are dragging with KK or AA trying to pot control flop and now get more value out of someone. Picking up the flush draw on the turn you will likely just call since you are getting the right price to do so and there's no point in raising since you could get re-raised and blown off your newly turned equity.

Anyhow, turn raises are generally one of two things - very nutted, or just bs. And to be honest, most of the time it's a very nutted hand - just sooooo hard for you to have such a strong hand on this board texture unless it were 66 or QQ. If I had flopped a set and you happened to have a bigger one, its just a cooler and not much I can do. So again - you are missing the bigger picture here and it's just a board texture that really shouldn't do much for your range here and so the turn raise is very suspect.

If you ARE raising your backdoor flush draws on turn cards - then good for you I suppose because at least when you are raising turns you are balanced between nothing and strong hands. I just know the deeper stacked we are we want to realize our equity more in these situations. If you do pull that trigger to raise turns as a bluff, you better be willing to continue betting rivers even when you brick out to sell that raise or it will cost you more than it will make you. This villan took that away from you.
I didn't say raise, I said jam.

You quickly dismiss this question before breezing onto focusing on something totally different, my turn re-raise.

So, again, let me bring it back- do you really think a set or straight opens by cold shoving the river here, as played? :icon_scra
 
G

Gusborgs22

Rock Star
Joined
Nov 17, 2019
Total posts
189
I specially dont like low off suited aces, so many bad spots to play. You hit an A and the villain bets big on the flop and turn, how can you call? You hit a 5 and what? Basically you are playing small pots/folding (hoping for 2 pair/ straight). For button/SB/ big blind BvB situations its actually good, for the other positions i dont like it, For CO its borderline
Now, if you are going to check raise with pair of fives do it on the flop, no point check raising the turn with 3rd pair in a straight flush drawed board with such a small pair.
When he bets the flop you can put he in: overpairs (77,88), sets, straight draws, A6/K6 or 56s or bluffs who called the SB (SB range is like QT,JQ,JT,9T...)
Then the turn, if he were bluffing, now he has something

In ALL of this situations you are losing, and in the few cases you are winning you have like 60-65% equity
Pretty hard that he's betting flop, turn and calling a re-raise with air
You beats what?
4x who missed? A2? A4 bluffs? everything else you lose


100% fold (i would fold on the turn)
 
G

Gusborgs22

Rock Star
Joined
Nov 17, 2019
Total posts
189
You really think a set or straight jams the river when the flush draw completes after I've re-raised the turn tho? :)


Yeah, this is far and away from standard play, as mentioned at the beginning, it's an unusual hand.

Making an easy fold pre might have been much more GTO, but wouldn't have made quite as good of a thread, would it? :biggrin:


Perceptive as ever fun!


Ultimately it played out as a kind of protracted leveling war.

Off topic, have you played in the CC League fundiver?

Yes i think. Why would you re-raise that big with a flush draw? 20% equity? Does Not makes sense re-raise that big with the flush draw, only with straight/set who wants protection
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

Legend
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Total posts
1,324
I didn't say raise, I said jam.

You quickly dismiss this question before breezing onto focusing on something totally different, my turn re-raise.

So, again, let me bring it back- do you really think a set or straight opens by cold shoving the river here, as played? :icon_scra


Once again - Yes. I would open overbet jam into you OOP with a set or a straight to get value from your Qx and overplayed overpairs - you are VERY unlikely to be raising a backdoor flush draw on the turn - so therefore I feel comfortable overbet jamming for value with a set or better vs some of your best top pair holdings.
 
Tracid

Tracid

Squirrel Tiger
Community Guide
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
6,334
Awards
6
Once again - Yes. I would open overbet jam into you OOP with a set or a straight to get value from your Qx and overplayed overpairs - you are VERY unlikely to be raising a backdoor flush draw on the turn - so therefore I feel comfortable overbet jamming for value with a set or better vs some of your best top pair holdings.
Well that's good because I'd absolutely be raising flush draws on the turn. Not always, but sometimes... :)
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Legend
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
22,484
Awards
6
$2.20 pko river decision..?
Quirky hand today, interested on your thoughts if you were faced with this..... strictly looking at this for comedy value so please keep this in mind when responding.







"Fold pre!" ainec


Hand was played poorly but ego was boosted regardless. wp? :confused:
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

Legend
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Total posts
1,324
Well that's good because I'd absolutely be raising flush draws on the turn. Not always, but sometimes... :)

I really feel like you are focusing on all the wrong points here. Post a hand asking for advice on your play and then becoming defensive when your play is criticized seems counter productive. Anyhow...


Raising draws and your nut hands on the turn will keep your turn raises balanced for sure and you will be harder to play against -- but on this stack depth, raising turn after being bet into twice is certainly going to be -ev long term. With one card to come your flush draw equity is only about 17% or so - IF all the flush cards are still live in the deck. This means 3 things.

Number 1 - you are going to be bloating the pot.

Number 2 - you are going to brick your turned backdoor flush draw ALOT.

Number 3 - you reopen the betting action giving your villan the chance to 3bet you and push you off of this equity.

It's not an overcomplicated spot, so I don't understand why we would want to complicate it at all. It's just a situation when we turn equity like this, we want to realize it as cheaply as possible and raising, bloating the pot goes against that logic and will bite you long term.

Not saying raising the turn won't get you the fold or wont win you chips sometimes because it will. Good players however will note the abnormal turn behavior and adjust accordingly for you. The other issue is follow through - if you do decideto raise your newly turned draw...but you aren't willing to blast the river when you brick your draw and then you showdown the losing hand...then your turn raise accomplishes absolutely nothing except losing you chips. Remember, betting sequences should tell a story...make sure yours is convincing.

Hopefully this is helpful in some manner.
 
Tracid

Tracid

Squirrel Tiger
Community Guide
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
6,334
Awards
6
I really feel like you are focusing on all the wrong points here. Post a hand asking for advice on your play and then becoming defensive when your play is criticized seems counter productive. Anyhow...


...
Aha, here I think we have the crux of it, I wasn't asking for advice on my play- just asked people's thoughts. Specifically, what would they'd do on the river. That's not necessarily the same thing. :wink:

Also, who is on the defensive? I haven't at any point said that I thought the hand was played well, nor have I offered any explanation for any street or preflop action, with the exception of the river call.

Posted the hand purely because I thought it was funny. :)

The hand history may well be littered with examples of how not to play, but I still love that I made the river call catching the omega-punt.

Here it now lies, immortalised in black & white in the cardschat history books for as long as coal is shovelled into the internet engine's burner, even if for my enjoyment alone! :laugh:
 
Tracid

Tracid

Squirrel Tiger
Community Guide
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
6,334
Awards
6
$2.20 pko river decision..?
Quirky hand today, interested on your thoughts if you were faced with this..... strictly looking at this for comedy value so please keep this in mind when responding.







"Fold pre!" ainec


Hand was played poorly but ego was boosted regardless. wp? :confused:
The MIGHTY OMEGA ORIFICE hath decreed! :eek:


Everyone! Quick! You know the drill..!


...


:adore: :adore: :adore: :adore::adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore::adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore::adore::adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore::adore::adore::adore::adore::adore: :adore::adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore::adore::adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore::adore::adore: :adore: :adore:




:icon_salu
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
10,276
Awards
1
Off topic, have you played in the CC League fundiver?

No. I cant play CC freerolls on PokerStars or 888 due to local government regulations, and I prefer to focus on my game rather than getting involved in something like the CC league. Surely good fun for those, who take part, but I will continue to miss out :)
 
Top