$2.2 NLHE MTT Turbo: Final Table 6 players

vox1er

vox1er

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Stacks:
UTG - UTG (T126,056)
MP - MP (T68,384)
CO - Hero (T100,025)
BTN - BTN (T47,272)
SB - SB (T55,996)
BB - BB (T134,267)

Preflop: (T5,400, 6 players) Hero is CO with K
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A
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2 folds, Hero raises to T4,800, 2 folds, BB calls T2,400

Flop: J
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K
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J
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(T12,600, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets T3,150, BB calls T3,150

Turn: 6
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(T18,900, 2 players)
BB bets T14,175, Hero calls T14,175

River: 8
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(T47,250, 2 players)
BB bets T28,000, Hero calls T28,000

Total Pot: T103,250
Hero mucks K
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A
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BB shows J
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9
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(with Three Of Kind of Js)

Villian in past hands was flatting my pre-flop raises especially a few times on BB. I was thinking I should have preflop shoved in this situation. Thoughts?
 
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

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You played the hand well! It's too deep to shove pre-flop.

I'd suggest betting a bit more at the flop and a bit less at the turn. River is close, but there are busted straight draws and he might sometimes be value-betting worse so the call is reasonable for sure.
 
F

fundiver199

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BB can definitely have a J, so you essentially flopped second pair, even though JX is a bit less likely with two J´s on the table. But its still not impossible, so its not like, you have anywhere near the nuts. And therefore I think, you can easily fold the river if not even the turn. You are going to lose some chips in a spot like this, but you dont have to go broke.
 
Vallet

Vallet

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The opponent played a check on the flop and waited for a bet from you. He got the information that you were hooked on the flop. Further streets were safe and allowed him to place big bets.
 
S

Sidetracked

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With effective stacks at about 40 BBs, that's too deep to open shove.

I think calling his donk on the turn, and maybe managing to find a fold on the river would have been great. As played, your call on the river certainly isn't terrible.
 
F

fundiver199

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I'd suggest betting a bit more at the flop and a bit less at the turn.

Hero did not bet the turn, Villain made a donk bet. On the river the flush came in as well, and at that point I think, we should fold. We beat no value, and the most obvious draw got there making it less likely, Villain is bluffing.
 
SuzdalDEcor

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It's funny to watch everyone talk about turn and river. But for some reason no one noticed two errors on the flop.... If you had played optimally on the flop, you would have lost much less.
 
Jon Poker

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It's funny to watch everyone talk about turn and river. But for some reason no one noticed two errors on the flop.... If you had played optimally on the flop, you would have lost much less.


What flop errors? Betting 1/4 pot into this paired board is in fact THE most optimal play. Even better since our hero has a K here. When the villan decides to lead the turn...there is my first red flag. It's almost always a Jack...but I cant fold, so calling the turn is fine. When they also lead the river and lead big....this is not good at all. They are targeting a K here, almost any K. A better jack should have raised them for value on the turn so they are supremely confident their hand is good enough to bet for value. That's the issue we face on the river...they either have the Jack or nothing. I dont think a worse King leads the river ever, but a busted straight or flush draw should always bet river big when they miss if they want to win the hand.

That being said, the opponent is betting a Jack or nothing, I don't hate the call here, we beat everything else besides the Jack so it's hard to give up our hand but if you can find a fold here I think these lower buy in games are more straight forward and opponents that take these lines are very unlikely to be capable of setting up a bluff here to get the K to fold. Again - most players at these levels are not competent enough to fold AK on a board like this, which is why it's hard to bluff these stakes and another reason why betting patterns like this will be a Jack more often than nothing.

In conclusion - I dont hate the call here, I just think if at all possible - you need to find the fold. Its risking too much of your stack in a situation where your opponent is pretty unlikely to be bluffing.
 
greatgame230

greatgame230

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I think you played your hand well but the raise in the pre-flop seems very small, I think the hand was well played
 
SuzdalDEcor

SuzdalDEcor

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PIOsolver - 1/4 pot on all paired boards with literally your entire range.
Lol.
1sr: did your opponent play GTO? My answer - ofcourse no. So why you missed exploit?
2nd: are you sure that all paired bords? Try to change the ranges
 
V

Veritas

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raise bigger pre. why minraise with AK on a 6max FT? shoving 40bb is too much, but at least make it 2.5-4bb.
also why the small bet on the flop? is it because you are afraid of a better Hand or because you want to bet small for value? I would bet bigger for protection on such a wet flop


as played I think you didn't lose too much, could have been worse. but on the other Hand, if he Shows KT you kinda won the Minimum because you played too cautious
It's funny to watch everyone talk about turn and river. But for some reason no one noticed two errors on the flop.... If you had played optimally on the flop, you would have lost much less.
I think so too. pre and post flop could have been played better

What flop errors? Betting 1/4 pot into this paired board is in fact THE most optimal play. Even better since our hero has a K here. When the villan decides to lead the turn...there is my first red flag. It's almost always a Jack...but I cant fold, so calling the turn is fine. When they also lead the river and lead big....this is not good at all. They are targeting a K here, almost any K. A better jack should have raised them for value on the turn so they are supremely confident their hand is good enough to bet for value. That's the issue we face on the river...they either have the Jack or nothing. I dont think a worse King leads the river ever, but a busted straight or flush draw should always bet river big when they miss if they want to win the hand.
I think you are missing a few very important Facts:
1. we Play 6max
2. we flop top pair top kicker on a wet flop
3. we Play a 2$ Tournament
4. we Play the FT


I don't like the small bet on the flop either. we flop TPTK and have to protect it from QT or any FD. with 2 Jacks on the board it is very unlikely that V has one of the other 2 Jacks and we beat every K with our kicker. therefor we should fire some bullets.


Villian in past hands was flatting my pre-flop raises especially a few times on BB. I was thinking I should have preflop shoved in this situation. Thoughts?
shoving the 3rd biggest stack into the 2nd biggest stack with AKo is not a good idea if you think About ICM. he won't call with AQ or weaker so your best Chance is a flip. shoving 40bb is not worth it.
 
Jon Poker

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Lol.
1sr: did your opponent play GTO? My answer - ofcourse no. So why you missed exploit?
2nd: are you sure that all paired bords? Try to change the ranges


ALL paired boards with your ENTIRE range..... not knocking anyones beliefs- just saying the fact is the optimal GTO play here is 1/4 pot like the OP did...that's all
 
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mara2259

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Preflop-ol-in in this case is much preferable to the tactics that you have chosen. But, knowing the history of the villain, it would be quite enough to raise about 4 BB to look at the flop. The check after the paired flop and the overbet after the turn should have alerted you. I would have believed the villain this time and dropped my hand. You only have a couple of kings with a decent kicker against all kinds of thrips and after the river you can also flush.
 
SuzdalDEcor

SuzdalDEcor

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ALL paired boards with your ENTIRE range..... not knocking anyones beliefs- just saying the fact is the optimal GTO play here is 1/4 pot like the OP did...that's all


I wrote to you "Try to change the ranges".

PIO does not take into account the opponent's 3bet range. PIO does not take into account the opponent's fold range. PIO does not take into account how often in reality the opponent defends on the flop. All the ranges writed by you. PIO gives you info how to play if opponent will be play GTO. You cant say "it was played well because PIO sayes same". It`s not!
If you dont understand what i mean, put to opponent this range: 3bet - any Ax, any Kx, all pokets; Calls - any Qx, any Jx; fold range - all other hands. And press calculate
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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I wrote to you "Try to change the ranges".

PIO does not take into account the opponent's 3bet range. PIO does not take into account the opponent's fold range. PIO does not take into account how often in reality the opponent defends on the flop. All the ranges writed by you. PIO gives you info how to play if opponent will be play GTO. You cant say "it was played well because PIO sayes same". It`s not!
If you dont understand what i mean, put to opponent this range: 3bet - any Ax, any Kx, all pokets; Calls - any Qx, any Jx; fold range - all other hands. And press calculate

So as not to hijack the thread this will be my last response. I agree - just because PIO says it is so does not mean this is 100% how we should be playing the hand. Just stating the fact that from a GTO optimal standpoint it is the correct bet size on the correct board.

As far as PIO taking into account what the opponents ranges and whatnot should be - you enter everything from stack sized to bet sequences - PIO runs multiple scenarios vs multiple ranges and comes up with optimal GTO solutions - it absolutely takes into account all of the aforementioned factors and will over mathematical solutions based upon input information. Do all of us need PIO in our lives? I would say 90-95% of us players do not. I do not use it religiously - I simply like playing with tools like this and I think it helps to further our understanding of the more technical aspects of the game at the highest levels.

Anyhow at the beginning I stated betting quarter pot on all paired boards with your entire range is considered the correct play - when asked for my source, I cited it. The rest is open to personal interpretation. Fact is based upon information via what is considered the most advanced GTO solver to date this is the most optimal bet size on this board texture.

Thanks for reading, thanks for the interest. I hope throughout all of this debate you find some clarity in both points and it improves your game.
 
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fundiver199

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Regardless what solvers say I certainly think, its fine to bet the flop, as long as we dont go to big. Sure he has some trips or boats, but he also has a lot of worse KX, draws and pocket pairs below the J, so this is certainly a bet for value. If he fold 22-TT to a small bet like this, we are literally printing money, when we C-bet him with air.
 
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