It seems to me sometimes like we are loosing touch with the game of poker in some ways. It used to be that when you wanted to play cards, you got dressed, got in the car, drove to the casino, and sat down at a table.

You memorized information. "This guy is really tight," or "This person only 3-bets with big pairs." You counted chips, made calculations for pot size and odds in your head.

You had to have a poker face, and had to learn at least some of the physical signs (well at least i did) of bluffing or big hands.


Now, it seems like it is a lot less personal. You log into stars and can play anywhere! (as well as sitting at 5 or 10 tables.) And with an HUD, you know everything about the guy in 100 hands. “Well, his ATS is 75 so he is probably trying to steal.” Sure, it is convenient. I’m not trying to be morally superior, if there was something I could stick in a pair of sunglasses to do that, I would own 5 pairs. But it seems to me that this isn’t how the game is supposed to be played. Does anybody else think we are drifting away from the heart of the game, or am i just an old fashioned person who doesn't like technology?

Originally Posted by TenJack

It seems to me sometimes like we are loosing touch with the game of poker in some ways. It used to be that when you wanted to play cards, you got dressed, got in the car, drove to the casino, and sat down at a table.

You memorized information. "This guy is really tight," or "This person only 3-bets with big pairs." You counted chips, made calculations for pot size and odds in your head.

You had to have a poker face, and had to learn at least some of the physical signs (well at least i did) of bluffing or big hands.


Now, it seems like it is a lot less personal. You log into stars and can play anywhere! (as well as sitting at 5 or 10 tables.) And with an HUD, you know everything about the guy in 100 hands. “Well, his ATS is 75 so he is probably trying to steal.” Sure, it is convenient. I’m not trying to be morally superior, if there was something I could stick in a pair of sunglasses to do that, I would own 5 pairs. But it seems to me that this isn’t how the game is supposed to be played. Does anybody else think we are drifting away from the heart of the game, or am i just an old fashioned person who doesn't like technology?

I don't think we are drifting away from it. This technology isn't new, when I was able to play sng's before black friday I had recently purchased a hud. That has been over 7 years ago. I have no use for one now, but you can bet if I could multi table online like I used to I would purchase one again. Easier than keeping notes and easier to look and see where your mistakes are.

Originally Posted by TenJack

It seems to me sometimes like we are loosing touch with the game of poker in some ways. It used to be that when you wanted to play cards, you got dressed, got in the car, drove to the casino, and sat down at a table.

You memorized information. "This guy is really tight," or "This person only 3-bets with big pairs." You counted chips, made calculations for pot size and odds in your head.

You had to have a poker face, and had to learn at least some of the physical signs (well at least i did) of bluffing or big hands.


Now, it seems like it is a lot less personal. You log into stars and can play anywhere! (as well as sitting at 5 or 10 tables.) And with an HUD, you know everything about the guy in 100 hands. “Well, his ATS is 75 so he is probably trying to steal.” Sure, it is convenient. I’m not trying to be morally superior, if there was something I could stick in a pair of sunglasses to do that, I would own 5 pairs. But it seems to me that this isn’t how the game is supposed to be played. Does anybody else think we are drifting away from the heart of the game, or am i just an old fashioned person who doesn't like technology?

Technology is making poker a lot harder for sure. Online poker is way harder than live in part because of HUD access. 10/20 live plays like 1/2 or 2/4 online. HUD's can't ruin poker arguably they make poker "better" by helping people to play better overall. If you don't like HUD's you can always just keep playing live

The other thing to consider is that HUDs are what catches a lot of the cheating. An example is you can sort your hud and if you suspect to players in a tourney are the same person you can look at their stats and if they are identical you got em. I remember on Juicy there were 8 sng regs with identical stats through thousands of games eventually even Juicy caught them(players kept turning them in)

The good thing is that Phil Galfond's new site will not allow HUDs, something that is very positive. If it attracts many players (and I think that RIOP will take a solid portion of the current online players), then definitely it will put the other sites on thoughts.

Originally Posted by TeUnit

The other thing to consider is that HUDs are what catches a lot of the cheating. An example is you can sort your hud and if you suspect to players in a tourney are the same person you can look at their stats and if they are identical you got em. I remember on Juicy there were 8 sng regs with identical stats through thousands of games eventually even Juicy caught them(players kept turning them in)

Where i can find tread about that ??

One issue with HUDS is that a lot of "fish" don't even know they exist. Recreational players who just don't do any research and just log into site and get on with it.

I told a friend this and that players will already know his game as soon as he is on the table. So him thinking he can steal early on with loose PF play is completely undermined with regs having stats showing how he plays. These tells would never be so easily apparent in live games where you are newcomer to table.

Originally Posted by MrTerek

Where i can find tread about that ??

Not sure which part you mean, but Juicy had no reason to broadcast that they where lazy and had lack of security controls. There has been many cases of huds catching cheaters from the pokerstars chinese don ring to dirty multi entry cheaters and bots on ACR. Thats why its frustrating to me that you have sites like Bovada where you dont know if there are cheating players or not because you cant prove anything without a hud.

Originally Posted by TenJack

It seems to me sometimes like we are loosing touch with the game of poker in some ways. It used to be that when you wanted to play cards, you got dressed, got in the car, drove to the casino, and sat down at a table.

You memorized information. "This guy is really tight," or "This person only 3-bets with big pairs." You counted chips, made calculations for pot size and odds in your head.

You had to have a poker face, and had to learn at least some of the physical signs (well at least i did) of bluffing or big hands.


Now, it seems like it is a lot less personal. You log into stars and can play anywhere! (as well as sitting at 5 or 10 tables.) And with an HUD, you know everything about the guy in 100 hands. “Well, his ATS is 75 so he is probably trying to steal.” Sure, it is convenient. I’m not trying to be morally superior, if there was something I could stick in a pair of sunglasses to do that, I would own 5 pairs. But it seems to me that this isn’t how the game is supposed to be played. Does anybody else think we are drifting away from the heart of the game, or am i just an old fashioned person who doesn't like technology?

Many live players or just beginners in poker do not know what HUD is, what stats are, or simply do not know how to apply this information in real game mode.

HUD's stats simply show the frequencies with which players take certain actions.

And it helps you in making decisions.

Originally Posted by TenJack

Does anybody else think we are drifting away from the heart of the game, or am i just an old fashioned person who doesn't like technology?

I understand your point and way of thinking but I don't think that we are drifting away from the heart of the game. The world and everything in it evolves all the time. If poker didn't change too, most of us wouldn't be playing it (or even able to play it) and it definitely wouldn't be as popular as it is. Plus, you can still play only live if you want to: get dressed, go to casino and all that jazz, so the good old times are still there, right? However, I for example live in a country where the closest casino to me is 7 and a half hours drive away so I definitely wouldn't be able to play poker if online poker wouldn't exist.

I also understand your point about HUD and it actually took me as well a long time to determine what I personally think of them. Nowadays I use HUD and have nothing against them. HUD is of course giving you some extra info about players but I don't think that it gives anyone too much advantage since every online player can use a HUD if they want to. That means that we are all on the same line when it comes to that. Then it's just up to you if you choose to use that or not. HUD becomes useful with small little decisions and perhaps helps you to win some pots but that alone doesn't make a difference if someone is a winning or losing player so I don't think it's ruining the game in any way.

The world changes but you are lucky because live poker is still there and not going anywhere. I mean there was a time when we all thought that the only way to rent a film was going to Blockbuster but look what happened when Netflix came

I also think that HUDs are just part of games evolution. Online poker itself can be considered as evolution of the live poker. Online poker gives you the opportunity to play on several tables, to play much more hands per hour than a live game and this requires also tools like HUDs which help you to take quick decisions.

The only thing that HUDs do is to collect the statistics instead of you doing it manually which is really needed in today's fast pace online game. Considering that they are available to everyone, legal and there are even completely free solutions on the market i find them ok to be used. Many people who have never used a HUD think that it is some kind of magical program which tells you how to play and beat other people but this is simply not the case. They just provide another source of information which you can use (and should do it very quickly) to decide what to do.

Good thing is that everybody have a choice nowadays. If you like the old style you can play only live. If you don't ike HUDs you can still play online and take notes manually. If you do that properly you will not have a disadvantage compared with people who use huds because you will have the same information like them. If you want to use a HUD - go for it.

HUDs aren't allowed at wsop.com. you could also play at ignition which is anonymous.

Lot's of interesting points of view on HUD's. I played with one for a while, before I drifted away from online poker. Learning to play poker well, and then learning to play with a HUD and understand it properly both take lots of time. At my age, learning new things takes a lot more time.

Does anyone know what HUD is best for PokerStars on the Mac? Or is sharing that information on Cardschat not allowed by the terms of service? Please be sure it is allowed before you answer - I don't want anyone getting into trouble just because I am too lazy to review the terms of service.