"Just don't..."—Things to do/not do at the table

IADaveMark

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Yeah ....so if and when I sit at that table, it will be for my enjoyment...
So let me see if I have this correct. You openly start out by saying that your "poker experience" is all about your enjoyment and no one else's and then claim that I am self-centered by passing on things that pretty much range between:
  1. making the "poker experience" worse for everyone at the table and
  2. outright annoying other people at the table
No, I'm not self-centered... I'm poker-centered.

And if you are trying to "tilt and frustrate you more", you need to realize that you skipped a few things here.
  1. I'm not tilted or frustrated by this stuff. I've been through far worse.
  2. If you are trying to "tilt and frustrate" me, you are actually are likely trying to "tilt and frustrate" the entire table. And that makes you the jerk at the table.
I would love to see you defend why you would:
  • Slow the game down
  • Screw up other people's stacks or the active pot
Because, in essence, everything I mentioned does one of those two (or both).

As for "calming the [however you spell it] down" and taking the proverbial "chill pill", you might also want to ponder the fact that you completely misunderstood the point of this post—and civil forum discussion in general.

I'm trying to help people make the game better. What are you trying to do?

And this is the way that adult humans approach this kind of communication:
Thank you so much for posting this topic. It will be very helpful for people who participate in live tournaments.
 
Poker Orifice

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Yeah ....so if and when I sit at that table, it will be for my enjoyment.....and no dealer or player, regardless of how frustrated or entitled they feel, will ever possess the ability to alter my character or change my state of being due to their vented frustration on something so insignificant. I don't make decisions or choose how I act and feel in life based on the self entitled opinions of random strangers....so I'm definitely not going to be phased by some douche bags at the poker table.

Secondly, this would not be a whose right or wrong issue for me, so I wouldn't respond in that regard....however, I would tell them to calm the fug down and take a chill pill! ....so I guess my first table should probably be at a public venue lol.

You see....if you, were smart enough, you would have seen that my point had very little to do with poker but more about self entitled ego's who openly display an intolerance for others, placing judgment and setting expectations based on their personal set of ideologies, and in your case, on a matter of subject that actually has very little to do with the actual game and rules......, if it was that important, it would have been added by now and I guess you wouldn't have to go around taking notes.

Don't get me wrong...I see and read your frustration .....but I also see something else......which is why for people like you, I will try and tilt and frustrate you more if it helped my game and it would also provide some private mental laughter all blinds long. However if no game benefit, then obviously I won't stoop so low and because i also know it would be a waste of my time and energy to further trigger people as blinded as you, all puns included.
Wow. You're a hurting unit... and have completely misread Dave's post (& intentions no doubt). This (his post) was done to BENEFIT those who aren't in the know.
 
Poker Orifice

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So let me see if I have this correct. You openly start out by saying that your "poker experience" is all about your enjoyment and no one else's and then claim that I am self-centered by passing on things that pretty much range between:
  1. making the "poker experience" worse for everyone at the table and
  2. outright annoying other people at the table
No, I'm not self-centered... I'm poker-centered.

And if you are trying to "tilt and frustrate you more", you need to realize that you skipped a few things here.
  1. I'm not tilted or frustrated by this stuff. I've been through far worse.
  2. If you are trying to "tilt and frustrate" me, you are actually are likely trying to "tilt and frustrate" the entire table. And that makes you the jerk at the table.
I would love to see you defend why you would:
  • Slow the game down
  • Screw up other people's stacks or the active pot
Because, in essence, everything I mentioned does one of those two (or both).

As for "calming the [however you spell it] down" and taking the proverbial "chill pill", you might also want to ponder the fact that you completely misunderstood the point of this post—and civil forum discussion in general.

I'm trying to help people make the game better. What are you trying to do?

And this is the way that adult humans approach this kind of communication:

And once again sir you shine through with your kindness, patience & tolerance. "Well-played"

And once again, great post Dave! Just the type of stuff that the forum here needs (imo).
 
Luvepoker

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Dave, I think you list is good but I am guilty of one of the things you dont want me to do. I do happen to do the 1 single stack early on but when you only have 8 or 9 chips its not really an issue. At least I hope not anyways. I do keep my stacks in 10 or 20,s once it gets going tho.
 
IADaveMark

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I do happen to do the 1 single stack early on but when you only have 8 or 9 chips its not really an issue.
Yeah, since the entire point of me including that was how people disassembling and reassembling that single stack slows things down, having a small handful of chips isn't that big of an issue. You are absolved.
 
IADaveMark

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Not related to actually playing the game - but one of my pet peeves is players eating stinky food at the table. Fish and salads are the worst!
"Oh, is it on me? Hang on..."
[puts down half-eaten chicken wing]
[licks BBQ sauce off of fingers]
[checks cards with same hand]
[fondles every single chip in his stack]
[calls]
[resumes eating]

(But I'm sure that some people will defend this by saying that their experience at the table is all about their own enjoyment... including wings.)
 
xOneCoolHandx

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After spending 200-300 hours (9 bracelet events and 2 dailies) at the poker table over my 3 different weeks at the WSOP this summer, many of them with the same players for 6-12 hours, I was subconsciously compiling a list of really annoying things that players did... not just once but over and over. These are things that are easy to fix. They aren't in the category of "dude, STFU..." etc. They are standard poker table actions that people either do out of habit or because they just are simply not aware of how it affects others and the table flow as a whole.

Single Chip Stack

If you stack all your chips, regardless of denomination, into a single stack, you now have to take your stack apart in order to place a bet. This is even more annoying when you are only going to be finding 1 or 2 of a single denomination. So, for example, if the chips in play are 100, 500, 1000, and 5000, and you have them all in a single stack (and, by rule, having the largest denomination on top), if you are simply calling a bet of 200, you now have to lift a ton of your chips off, possibly even putting them off to the side, just so you can get down to the 2x 100 chips you are looking for.

Compare this to having each denomination in their own stack where that same 200 bet is a 3-second process to grab and place.

Mixed up Stacks

In a similar fashion—but significantly worse—is having your chips mixed up entirely. Now just to place a bet, you have to sift through what you have and find the right one or right combination of chips.

Just like above, having them arranged where you can see and get to the right one(s) quickly speeds up the game for everyone. And also possibly prevents mistakes on your part.

Sizing your Stacks

Now that we have put things in their proper place (arranged like a cash drawer), it really helps—especially as stacks get deeper—to have your chips in stacks of the same size. Eventually, the accepted height is 20 chips but for a long time, it is better to have them in 10s. Obviously, if you have fewer than 10 or 20 of a type of chip, they are in shorter stacks. If you have more than 10 or 20, then the remainder is put in their own shorter stack.

Why do this?

  • Easier for you to know how much you have
  • Easier for others to know how much you have (and thus avoids many of the frequent questions about how much you have behind)
  • Easier for you to bet certain amounts merely by grabbing a column and moving it forward
  • Easier for you to give change to the dealer or another player for the same reason. If someone tosses me a 1k chip, I can grab a stack of 100s and slide it to them. Sure, we cut it in half and spread one of them into the 5x 100s and stack it back up, but that's just for visual confirmation for both of us
  • Easier for the inevitable all in bets for you, the dealer, and the other players to know how much it is. (I have a much-appreciated habit of saying, "all in... 26,400" just to head off the inevitable question.)

In the pics above (taken from my WSOP adventures), it doesn't take long to count up the I'm playing 39,100 on the left and 441,000 on the right.

For those of you playing at home:
  • 15k + 20k + 1k + 1k +2k +100 = 39,100
  • 175k + 200k + 25k + 40k + 1k = 441,000
Tossing your Bet in

When you are placing your bet, you don't get any style points for having your chips do backflips and try to stick the landing. Just place it out there. If you are putting air under them, they are going to bounce to who knows where—into the existing pot (bad), into other players' stacks (bad), into the dealer's well (bad), or off the table entirely ("Floor! Table 236!"). Even if you don't put air under them and send them forward with a toss, there's a pretty good chance that they are going to roll into the aforementioned areas (until we start using non-circular chips, I suppose). Never mind the annoyance factor of everyone trying slap down or corral chips, it takes extra time to put it all back together and try to figure out what you bet in the first place.


A better way is to simply place them forward in a single or multiple identically-sized stacks. (e.g. when betting 800, instead of a stack of 8 chips, cut them into two stacks of 4 side by side).

Another common way, especially for multiple denominations is to gently topple the chip stack so they are fanned out.




This is really common for smaller bets (e.g. 2-6 chips of a single or mixed denomination). If you are going to do it, though, spread it perpendicular to you rather than pushing it forward. The reason for this is that it is much easier to see them when they are laid out left to right rather than forward or back. In the latter case, some chips may be covered by others so it is hard to get a count. This is especially bad if one of the ones covered is a higher denomination. Deciding to call 300 when it was really 400 is no big deal. 300 instead of 800? Or 1300? That's a bit more of an issue.

Again, it speeds things up.

Using the Single Chip Rule

The "single chip rule" can be used to your advantage so you aren't wasting your (and everyone else's) time by moving massive stacks of chips around. When combined with verbal bets, they are just as effective. While verbal is binding, many places want to see that chip move forward simply for confirmation on the cameras.

Some examples:


By saying "all in" and tossing a single chip in, you don't have to worry about putting in your massive stack and, if you either win the pot through folds or can pull your bet back because you are getting the rest of the pot, you don't have to restack all your stuff. If someone wants a count, you already should have a good idea anyway if you are stacking your chips like above. It's also easier for the dealer to confirm in place rather than pulling every single stack forward and reassembling it for counting. And if they do have to pull it forward, you have already sorted out the stacks for them. They can break them down quickly to confirm sizes and move on.

Saying "call" and tossing a single chip in is similar. Whether the other player is all in or simply put in any bet, you can sort out how many chips are moving and it which direction later. Often, the dealer will play out the rest of the board or both players will simply showdown if you are on the river. If you lose you can cut out what the all in player deserves (or just shove your whole stack across at that point if you are covered). If you win, you don't have to move your chips at all. That's good since you are going to be busy collecting and stacking your new chips from the pot. Done.

Again, it saves a bunch of time.

Pick your Spots for Change

Giving change between players is great. There are plenty of times when we are going to need more of a certain denomination than we have. Offering it is good just like asking for it is OK. However, there are times and places to not do it.
  • Don't automatically make change for someone's active bet without first either asking them or getting a confirmation from the dealer that you are doing it. This simply falls into the category of "don't touch someone else's chips".
  • Yeah, you can do it during a hand that you are not in, but don't do it across a player that has a bet in front of them. For example, if seat 3 has a bet out, seats 2 and 4 shouldn't be doing change across that bet. Not only is it distracting for the active player or anyone else who is reading that person's bet, things can go wrong with the chips where there is some confusion about which chips are who's.
  • In the same vein, don't do it across the pot. If you are in seat 1, don't get change from seat 4 or 5 when there is a pot sitting to the left of the board area.
Make the Ante Square

In big blind ante situations (which pretty much everywhere is playing these days), make sure your ante is square to the actual value so it can be pulled in without change. Your BB doesn't matter because the dealer can give you change when it comes around to you after everyone has bet.

Examples:
  • If it is 400/800/800, put the 800 out there exactly (get change beforehand if you need to) but you can put a 1k chip in front of you for your BB.
  • If it is 300/500/500, don't put a single 1k chip in front of you. (That's even worse because the dealer can't just make change for the ante alone.)
Also, push your ante forward, please. If you are at 500/1k/1k, don't just put the two 1k chips out right next to each other as if they are your blind. Worse, don't stack them on top of each other like you are betting 2k. Put the blind in front of you per normal, but at least put the ante forward so the dealer can just glance and scoop it in.

----

I'll probably remember more of the annoyances and efficiency issues and just post them further here in this thread.
Very sage advice. But did all of these annoyances distract you from playing optimally?
 
IADaveMark

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Here's another add that I forgot while writing the OP but came up alot again over the weekend.

If you are UTG, don't fold your cards until the dealer has actually finished dealing. It's one thing to fold while the CO or BU is getting theirs (and still not a good idea to do), but I've seen people fire their cards into the (not-yet-existent) muck while MP players are still getting their cards. Dude... seriously? You got somewhere to be?
 
riff_raff312

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This is a lot of info and some really good things to watch for now that i know it bothers some people i'll have to keep it in mind thank you ;) if it helps me win i'll be using them :ROFLMAO:
 
IADaveMark

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This is a lot of info and some really good things to watch for now that i know it bothers some people i'll have to keep it in mind thank you ;) if it helps me win i'll be using them :ROFLMAO:
It won't help you win. But it will make the game worse for everyone—including you. Use that information however you see fit.
 
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My biggest pet peeve is just slowing the game down when it's your turn to act.
 
okeedokalee

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Thanks Dave, all your contributions are extremely valuable.
 
Andyreas

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I am just re-reading this thread as I am thinking about playing my first live poker tournament. I still think those are great tips, as I already mentioned earlier! :love:

Since it's a great read, I think a gentle push might make more newer members have a look as well. :)
 
Luvepoker

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I am just re-reading this thread as I am thinking about playing my first live poker tournament. I still think those are great tips, as I already mentioned earlier! :love:

Since it's a great read, I think a gentle push might make more newer members have a look as well. :)

I am shocked you have never played live Andyreas. Ask any question you want and message me I will pass on anything I know and learned from my live play. I love playing live tournaments.
 
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